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Post by Kenshin on Apr 21, 2007 14:45:51 GMT -6
Everybody's got their own problems, we can't blame them for that. Oh yea, what you were doing was the normal thing for people I used to know, well at that age they did it every day. Then a year or two older then what you are they've been in and out of rehab, hell some of the were sitting in jail for breaking and entering for drug money, they were stupid as hell that's how they got cought. That's one of the few reasons I never got into drugs, had idiots like that showing me what not to do.
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Dray'Gon
The "Before" years
Devoted Dragonfang[M:-100]
"May my ancestors bring me strength!"
Posts: 141
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Post by Dray'Gon on Apr 21, 2007 22:00:07 GMT -6
'All have fallen short of the grace of God.' Nobody is perfect. Because of this, I never try to judge anyone. Granted some of us may have worse falls than others, but by realizing where you have gone astray, and doing what you can to turn back to the path that leads to God, is a commendable step. I'm sure if you continue to keep God with you during this endeavor, you will surely suceed. God has also taught us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We should even love our enemies. We may not like what they do, but it's the actions we should be against, and not the person. Therefore, I hope nobody thinks ill of you for what you have done, especially considering you came forward with it, and you are making strides to correct it.
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Zeiss
The "Before" years
Mysterious, Sarcastic Shaman[M:-5]
"I herd u liek Lotus Tilez?"
Posts: 256
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Post by Zeiss on Apr 22, 2007 1:16:21 GMT -6
Well as you all know, you can get pod legally in Holland! Hah! But still, I'm sixteen and I've never smoked anything in my life, nor am I planning on starting.
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Post by Kenshin on Apr 22, 2007 9:00:03 GMT -6
Me and God don't really see eye to eye. He gives us free will, we could never break one law set by man, do good deeds and still end up in hell just because we didn't devote our life to God. You shouldn't do good things because God comands it and you don't want to sin and spend the rest of your life in hell. IMO for this "almighty" creater he's very self centered.
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Post by Matthias on Apr 22, 2007 9:02:39 GMT -6
yes, so very self centered he'd give up his kid for you. That's horrible!
Still, DCT (divine command theory) is a load. The idea that we should be moral just because God says so. He wants us to be moral, and like good kids, we should endeavor to do so. Besides, it's not like doing good things is painful or something.
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Post by Matis on Apr 22, 2007 12:00:14 GMT -6
Maybe so, but it's taken to the extreme of perfection. As far as we all known, to get to Heaven, we need to become saints. Who have been declared "saints" by the so-called church? Those who died for God, and those who spent their life in misery, helping others with everything they could, giving their own life and free will away.
That's either impossible, or retarded to the point of no return. One of the reasons I'm an atheist. Another being, the church is friggin' RICH. If they wanted to, they could actually HELP the damned kids in Africa. But they don't. Isn't that hypocritical?
You can't trust in the church. Who knows what modifications did the testaments go through during the middle ages, when everything was explained through God, for the church's benefit?
God might have not let his son die. He might have not been hanged down in a cross, or have had put a spiked crown on his head. Half of the things told in the darned bible might have not happened, and might have been included by the church later on, because it would benefit them in a way or another.
Plus, over here, every single priest has a BMW, or travels in 1st class when going on plane trips. Aren't they supposed to SHARE their money with the other priests, and use whatever they don't NEED to live to help the others?
Saint church my as*.
EDIT: Hadn't noticed that the phrase had been censored before...It looked...weird.
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Post by Kraft on Apr 22, 2007 13:36:02 GMT -6
So, Dear Matis,
Over here, NO priest has a BMW, no priest has a lot of money and they all gave their lives to GOD. They gave up women. Do you have any idea how hard that is? Knowing you're not going to have children, a family? Giving it up for something you don't know it even exists? Yeah, maybe there are 'rotten' priest, but that's no reason to diss them like that.
Also, you don't have to be a SAINT to go to heaven, in the end, the final judgement will prove if you have lived your life well or not. God does not care if you believed or not, his Church is just a guideline. However, if you know God and his guidelines exists, then denying them or just not believing in the guidelines, makes you pretty bad. It's what I did.
And the Church WAS rich. You know the Church has problems giving money to their organisations in THIRD WORLD countries, yeah, that's right, the Church has been helping people for a long time there. A lot of friars and nuns have spent their lives helping people they barely know, all because of the fact they knew they were doing good. It's not like it's their aim to become famous as a Saint. Ever heard about St. Theresa?
Also, You think I've changed MY lifestyle for NOTHING? yes, maybe the church is bad, yes maybe God doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean that the values it stands for and the wise life lessons are worthless; please, don't be intolerant. I believe. I'm not forcing you to believe. But if you know there might be something like God, then, well, you might consider it.
PS: Yeah, the Bible can be rewritten and all that; but heck, the church wasn't allways bad? Maybe barely something changed. You can prove nothing. So... there goes your point.
PSS: I hope I wasn't too offensive, I can be quite aggressive. Especially now I've just renewed my faith. Now I really don't want to hear bad things about God. I'm really having a hard time. So... Thanks for your opinion Matis!
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Post by Matthias on Apr 22, 2007 16:38:07 GMT -6
Okay, first off, whoever told you that you had to be perfect to get into Heaven was lying to you. While that may be some comon held religious belief where you are, that's not a universal. According to religious text (a.k.a. the Bible), it only takes a belief in Jesus, at least according to Christian tradition (since we've been discussing Church and not synagogue/temple/mosque, I'm guessing that's where we're going.) The whole idea that when you get to Heaven, there'll be this big balance scale and your good has to outweigh your bad, well, that's a lot of rubbish.
Also, yes, there is corruption in the church. You see, the church is made of primarily of humans, and humans have a tendency to mess up every now and then. As a result, you will notice priests driving fancy cars and religious talk shows, etc. They're cashing in on people's beliefs, which is fundamentally wrong at every level. But you have to remember, for every person like that, there's probably two or three people willingly giving themselves to their faith. I know several people (teenagers included) who have gone on mission trips to various countries in order to help out. If I see nearly every Hispanic person has a bad attitude, should I overgeneralize and assume all Hispanic people are bad? No, that would be stupid. So would calling the church bad because of a few bad individuals.
Man, it's weird. I don't defend Catholicism... I've actually been fed anti-Catholic literature. Still, they do a lot of good for the world. Looking only at the bad gets you no where fast.
Also, atheism is a fool's belief. What you're saying is that you know without a shadow of a doubt that there cannot be a higher power. Anywhere. Period. that means that you think you know everything there is to know about the world around you. Meaning you have deity-level intelligence. So you're either a deity, or you're wrong. Now, agnosticism, that's different. That means you're not sure if there's a God (or gods) or not.
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Post by Matis on Apr 22, 2007 16:40:46 GMT -6
I said I don't believe in the Church, nor in THIS God. I DO believe there's something higher, or supreme, but not THIS. So, until we find out what or who that is, I'm an atheist(which means I'll probably DIE an atheist too).
I DO follow Catholicism as a way of life, or philosophy. Else, I would be killing the people that annoy me, steal, and such.
And the church still IS rich. Ever saw how much do they ask for in the Vatican? A Coke is roughly 3 euros/dollars. Plus, if they wanted to, they could "sell" the paintings they have, the gold the Vatican is made of, and all that to different nations, and use that money to help the world. Yet, they don't.
Oh, and I don't trust the church because they go saying "You should be nice to everyone, blah, blah, blah", and the current pope has done nothing but put us in trouble with the Muslims. Isn't the pope supposed to be "God's voice on Earth", or something of the like? I doubt "God" really wants us to "fight" against the Muslims.
And, as you yourself said, having faith in God and the Church again has made you aggressive towards everyone who disses them, or has a different idea than them. I seriously doubt that's what they call the "perfect grace". But meh...whatever floats your boat. Or anyone else's, for that matter.
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Post by Matthias on Apr 22, 2007 16:50:03 GMT -6
Matis, you're not an atheist. You might be spiritualist, or something, but you're not an atheist.
People get aggressive when defending there beliefs, particularly if they believe strongly enough in them. it happens. Personally, I try to reason with people, and put my money where my mouth is. Still, I'm a human with a big mouth.
And I doubt God wants us to fight against the Muslims either. I don't know enough about the current situation in the Church to argue on that front, honestly. Like I mentioned, I'm almost against the Catholic church. I've seen dozens of people who are disillusioned with faith in general that came from Catholic backgrounds.
And if you don't trust one church, there's still others. As I said, not everyone who is Christian is the same. Kraft and I are both different, obviously, and we both fit under that general descriptor. If the Catholic church has upset you, try something else. Not everything is corrupt, I assure you. And there are Catholic churches that are good, as Kraft aggressively pointed out.
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Post by Matis on Apr 22, 2007 17:04:49 GMT -6
Darn...I missed your post before mine.
Anyway...No, I'm not an atheist, but most people don't know the term "Agnosticism", which is why I tend to use "Atheism" instead.
Also, thing is, in my country, people of other religions are...margined, to put it in some way. About a 98% of the population in my country are Catholic, and no other "churches" exist over here. In physical form, at least. Or they are scarce, and don't have much importance in society, overall.
Every private school here follows Catholicism, and unless you want some crappy education, you have to go to a private school(unlike in first world countries, where even public schools are decent). Catholicism, over here, is almost enforced upon you.
Yes, the Catholic church DOES do much of the good in the world, but using their own beliefs against them, I must say that they could also do MUCH more than they are doing at the moment. And it's only the acts of a certain few, such as Mother Theresa, which really put the Church to shame.
And, when I said "Catholic church", I was referring to the Catholic religion, in general. Not each building.
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Post by Matthias on Apr 22, 2007 17:14:39 GMT -6
gah, that's why I balk whenever I hear Catholicism mentioned. This whole "forced on you" stuff is for the birds. It should be a free choice, that's why God gave you free will, dang it. Still, I assure you there are other choices out there.
I kinda figured you meant Catholicism in general, but I still say there are sections of that larger group that are good.
And yeah, too few people know of agnosticism. I all out attack atheists wherever I go. Agnosticism is an improvement, in my mind, on all levels.
I could sit here and preach to you all day, but chances are it won't make in difference. Just trust this: there are good Christians out there, and we don't all mimic every action the Pope makes. Like I've said, I'll reason all day, but I think you'd learn more by watching then hearing.
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Post by Matis on Apr 22, 2007 17:20:51 GMT -6
I know what you meant, and have known as much for years. You're not telling me anything new, really.
I know there are good Christians out there, because I know of many too, and I realize there are SOME that are not puppets. But thing is, mankind, as it is now, is VERY manipulable. Less so than it was a couple hundred years ago, but still, mostly everyone is easy to control, and will follow and believe in anyone, just because "they told me so".
That's why I have a hatred towards both the Church(which benefits from this), and politicians(who do so on an even bigger scale). But anyway...that's not something for me to go on about, or you'll have me here, talking for hours on end.
I believe I should better close this topic, before we all become aggressive towards each other.
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