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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 9:36:13 GMT -6
Lilly couldn't help but raise an eyebrow as Morrigan went from annoyed to straight up she-beast from sheer anger, not particularly bothered by the reaction - she didn't really care what the other mage thought in particular, and in general she didn't concern herself too much with what other people thought of her ideas. It was actually legitimately impressive just how worked up Morrigan got over it, though. And sadly, partially her fault. She had assumed Morrigan would be bright enough to pick up on the subject switch, but in retrospect it had been an overly optimistic view, and she couldn't really blame the shaman for her own lapse in judgement, could she?
"...I did not suggest using the Nether specifically as such a weapon. My idea was a general response to your interesting comments on the usage of magic in warfare." Lillianne leaned back into her chair, as much a signal of her ease in the situation as her disinclination to rise to Morrigan's provocation. Was it worth apologizing? She certainly hadn't meant to suggest that they use shamans as sacrifices to the Nether endlessly, that was almost as inhumane as it was wasteful. But - neither was it primarily her fault, or her problem, that Morrigan had chosen to take it that way. Lilly believed she had separated the two clauses sufficiently. Anyways, unless the shaman WANTED to prove that dark magic was evil, she'd hardly attack in the middle of a city, and upon an unarmed woman no less. Of course, Lilly didn't know just how strong Morrigan actually was or she might have chosen her wording slightly more carefully, but it didn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things - a dark magic user who made a point of abusing their power was nearly guaranteed a swift end by an Elibe that cared little for them.
"All I care for is the safety of Lycia, not to push war personally; it was a thought exercise given the current state of Elibe. But for the sake of argument, allow me to retort to one relevant comment. You say that fear only creates war. Fear of the unknown, certainly. People fear what they do not understand." And while she obviously couldn't quite empathize with the struggles of a shaman in Elibe, Lilly could empathize more than Morrigan was likely to know. She had a great deal of experience with that herself. "But fear of the known? Fear of certainty? I have seen a great deal of war, Morrigan, and I have seen very few men rush knowingly to death unless motivated to protect those they left behind. We humans may all have a bit of the fool in us, but as a race we strive to survive, not commit suicide by stupidity."
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Post by Morrigan Reid on Jan 2, 2017 17:48:50 GMT -6
“...You didn't?” Oh dear, Morrigan. You had gone on quite the tirade, hadn't you? It would certainly be a shame if that tirade had been unfounded. If you had misheard the words of the polite young lady and let yourself be lost in your own worries and concerns. Wouldn't it? Yet as Morrigan searched her mind, to better recall what Lillianne had said, a cruel joke became a terrifying reality. Her cheeks flushed red and she had to fight the urge to shrink back in her seat. “I...oh Lilly, I am so sorry. I must have misheard you and...I've...a lot of things on my mind, but you didn't deserve any of that.”
Her eyes and tone were both genuine and, through some miracle of sheer willpower, she managed to keep eye contact through her apology. A truly impressive feat, especially given Lilly probably thought her to be some sort of madwoman. Or an imbecile. The worst thing Morrigan could do, though, was let that apology hang in the air for too long.
Her mind pushed past the embarrassment as she attempted to redeem herself. She...she was intelligent, she knew she was, but war was a subject that she only had so much study in. So much essentially equating to slightly more than 'none', in this case. Still, Lillianne hadn't been speaking of things such as logistics or raw strategy. She ah...the argument here seemed to be one of ethics.
And Lillianne's stance was frightening. Not simply because of the raw brutality involved, but the objectivity about it. Even if it felt wrong, there was a degree of factual basis. And, if her stance did serve as a path to end all war...was it truly so wrong? There was quite a bit that Morrigan found difficult to effectively counter. “Moving back on to the topic at hand. I...confess, I find it a hard point to argue. One of my only stances is that I am not entirely sure to make known the true cost of a cataclysmic war would be enough to end it. I still believe the Scouring held an example of this, yet it is not a perfect comparison, I acknowledge that.”
“But when have we ever seen the threat of mutually assured destruction quell war? I do not believe there has ever been such a threat. So it sounds more like speculation as opposed to guaranteed truth. There's also the fact that...not all men and women are the same. They are not all equal. Someone, somehow, would abuse an Elibe free of war. Perhaps that threat is the form of a weapon? Then they could seize it for themselves, and rule as a true tyrant until rebellion ensues.”
The more Morrigan spoke the more she began to...understand. To understand that she and Lillianne were clearly of two different worlds, with very different focuses and goals. Yet, at least on this surface level, they could connect. They had clashed poorly, a fault of Morrigan's, and yet Lillianne had not simply up and left. She stayed, and rose above berating the shamaness.
She was grateful for that. More than Lilly would likely ever know. It had always been that the errors Morrigan did make were often the most critical. The kind that never went unnoticed, which made it all the more worse if or when she had been forced to endure ridicule or mockery for those errors. It was that simple kindness, intended or not, that helped spur Morrigan to continue this debate. Even if she was outclassed in such a subject, Lillianne's demeanor meant that she stood only to gain from such a discussion.
It was...admittedly inspirational. Morrigan had reacted poorly in every sense. Regardless of whatever thoughts Lilly harbored about her, she left them out of the discussion. That made room for progress, and growth.
“Though I also admit that it is...relieving, to hear your motivations. It sounds as though you care for your home as I mine.” Morrigan added in, relaxed enough to muster up a small smile once again. “But I still believe that fear, of the unknown and the known, can create war. Though I will adjust my point in that regard, and add that either can quell conflict as well. People are not all the same. They will not all react to fear in the same manner, and that will never change. Fear of the known may drive many to lay down arms for good, but some may never surrender. Perhaps motivated by their fear of the unknown. They know certain death is before them, but there...are things worse than death, as I said before.”
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 17:42:09 GMT -6
How interesting. The dark magic user jumped up a notch in Lilly' estimation as she went only one step away from prostrating herself in her apology, clearly trying to swallow her pride and emotion in order to do what she thought was right. But was it for Lilly's benefit, or her own? Had she apologized because it was the right thing to do, or because she didn't like being wrong - and did it matter? Lillianne wasn't too concerned about which it was; that Morrigan HAD been able to recognize her failure was all that truly mattered to the relentless Ryerden, a positive sign that Morrigan was not the sort of person to twist reality and reaction to excuse her mistakes rather than facing them directly.
Privately speaking, though, she wasn't as morally opposed to the idea of experimenting with the Nether as Morrigan obviously was, but neither was Lilly a fan of the horrific plans Morrigan had spoken of - wastefully sacrificing shamans to the darkness without a benefit. To do truly great evil in the name of a Greater Good was not her way; only when every step into darkness had purpose - to have purpose and KNOW your purpose - could she personally accept it. But that was clearly not a good subject matter right now, nor was she fond of even the idea. It skewed far too close to outright cruelty and sadism for her tastes.
"That is the flaw in my proposal, isn't it?" Lilly agreed to Morrigan's response, aware that there was no ironclad argument against it, and willing to accede the point. It was something she had thought of in the past as well, argued against herself. "After all, humans do great and terrible things for love, for honor, for country. All it would truly take is one madman to gain access to the weapon to threaten much, or all of Elibe... to potentially waste any benefit of the detente. And Elibe has no shortage of madmen willing to kill in the name of God. As you said, the Scouring did not truly end all war, after all."
"Though I would also use the Scouring as, to a degree, an example of my point. The weapons themselves were supposedly greatly lessened by the Ending Winter, and more than that they have been lost to mankind. And even with that truth, the first century or two of Elibe after the Winter was supposedly quite peaceful, by necessity. If they had not been weakened, if men had retained control of those weapons, would we have been able to extend that peace eternally? Was Roland the only man capable of wielding Durandal, or simply the last to do so before the weapon was taken from us by those who feared change? And, I suppose, the greatest question of them all... what WOULD happen if Apocalypse and Forblaze clashed?"
She didn't truly have answers to any of that. Opinions, sure. Lilly suspected that if the Legendary Weapons had retained their full strength and been available to the countries, it could have staved off war for longer, perhaps forever. But it was a gamble with great loss potentially to follow. She couldn't necessarily blame others for not wanting to take it. "...In my line of work, I've had to gauge the consequences of countless actions. If you've heard of Scorched Earth tactics - the morality and practicality of destroying your country behind you as you flee a superior force, to ensure they cannot use it against you. Whether to execute or imprison spies. What to do with uprisings, banditry. There are rarely easy answers, only suites of options each as ugly as the next, each with consequences both known and unknown." Lilly smiled thinly at her counterpart. "I doubt either of us has the answer, but I believe there is inherent value to setting those viewpoints against each other. Perhaps there is truly an answer, but if so it will only be found in the ashes of failed theories."
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Post by Morrigan Reid on Jan 8, 2017 23:02:58 GMT -6
Morrigan was pleased that Lilly saw her point. It meant she was reasonable, though Morrigan had already begun to determine that anyway, given that she was still speaking to her despite her...outburst. Though when talks of madmen came Morrigan's thoughts turned to Hargus. She'd only heard some tales of the man, during one of her missions on the mainland. Originally a bandit leader who became an incredibly powerful necromancer, and was even resurrected from the dead once? Yet Lillianne went a different route. She brought religion into the matter.
And thus, likely, she had referred to Etruria. Home of the current, greatest madman of Elibe as far as she knew: Kraft. Morrigan knew a bit more about the man than she did about Hargus, given the ties her Convent once had with Etruria. More importantly, perhaps, was that she knew Kraft was to blame for the tragedy that was Ostia.
Yet Lilliane's talk of the legendary weapons took her mind down a darker path, one that stood ready to challenge her own natural optimism. For as much as Morrigan would have loved for peace to have lasted more than a century or two, even if it meant a peace enforced by such powerful weapons, she simply could not believe it would have been the case. Yet, at the same time, she did not truly know if it was the case either. All she did know was that the weapons were weakened and lost, and peace did not last.
“I suppose we'll never really know how history would have played out in that scenario, just as we cannot possibly know how the future were to play out if we tried to re-enact it, in a sense. To have power so vast that it enforces peace.” It was far from ideal, and that realization did get Morrigan a bit down, but it was reality. Mankind would not simply just, as a whole, get together and put cast all differences aside. For them to do that would be to go against what made mankind...mankind.
“As for Scorched Earth I have read about it. Very...brutal, but an effective check. Effective damage control or...there's a better word for it, but it escapes me.” Morrigan didn't want to linger on one lost word. Given how intelligent Lilly seemed to be, there was a chance she'd know it either way. Or she'd at least understand what Morrigan meant. “Though I agree. There's much to be gained from a discussion such as this. I only wish I was more...invested, I suppose. I care about the state of Elibe, about mankind, but I've never had the luxury to ponder about a way to end war.”
Morrigan blinked and then shook her head, offering the blue haired woman a weak smile. “No, not a luxury. It's work. It's a necessity. And you seem to have put your fair share of time into that. Perhaps you may be the one to find these answers, then.”
Just because Morrigan did not have the time...or perhaps the knowledge to pursue something, did not mean it wasn't important. Perhaps not critical to her, but critical to Elibe.
"Though that leads me to ponder. Um...what IS your line of work? A high ranking soldier? A commander?"
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