Mixed Classes (Books AND Blades!)
Dec 3, 2016 21:34:23 GMT -6
Post by Inese Ozols on Dec 3, 2016 21:34:23 GMT -6
Okay, so I was actually a bit surprised when I saw that there were absolutely no classes in the RP that use both magical and physical weaponry. It was sort of the playstyle that I always went for when I played the more recent FE games and so I wanted to talk about them here and if they could possibly be implemented in a way that would broaden the roleplaying aspect of the site.
First off, when I say mixed classes, I mean a class that can use both tomes or staves as well as one or more physical weapons. Basically, classes that use both Magic and Strength, if you're going by gameplay terminology. As an example, the Trickster is a mixed class, using both a sword (or bow in Fates) and a staff.
Why should one consider even implementing some of these classes?
PROS
Better Roleplay Value: It allows a person options when they're creating their character to try and develop a person with a rich backstory and weaponry that suits that story. A Pegasus Knight, distraught that she cannot adequately protect her friends, turns to the nether to become a Dark Flier. A healer that has spent one too many of her days almost being turned to mangled remains by bonewalkers picks up a bow to become a Priestess. An honorable thief who helps the poor and needy decides to train himself in using a stave to heal the sick and wounded that cannot otherwise afford such care. It allows new routes to be taken when building characters' arsenals to better fit their backstory.
More Engaging Combat: Not only does it allow more avenues when building up the story of a character, it also allows you and your opponent to have more fun when fighting each other. It gives a new turn to the battle -- rather than simply bashing one another with swords all day or slinging spells at one another, you can do both! At the blink of an eye, a battle can turn from a fest of fireballs and thunder into a climatic clashing of locking blades. It gives more freedom when entering a battle and it keeps all parties involved on their toes. I'm not saying that combat here is boring -- it is very fun, from what I've seen so far -- but this adds another layer that I personally think would be much appreciated.
Note: To some, this may seem overpowered. This will be discussed below.
More Variety: Simply put, it gives players more options that don't severely impact others. It's not necessary by any means to have mixed classes, but it does open more paths for those who want to take that route while also keeping the other people mostly unharmed. It's highly unlikely that every battle is going to turn into the ones detailed above with an introduction of a mixed class; if you enjoy just two people locked in a duel with only steel in their hands, then you will still have plenty of opportunities to have that experience. If you are like me, however, and love both magic and might equally, a character who can use both would be an interesting choice.
However, this is not all happy and fun. There are some actual arguments against it, and I will try my best to answer all the ones I can think of as best as I can.
ARGUMENTS AGAINST - and my responses to them
"Don't we already have magic weapons?": It's true that, in the shop, there is the option to purchase your own mystical blade and give it an enchantment of your choice. This, by itself, does open a lot of variety -- the same variety that mixed classes would also bring. However, there's a problem that I see with them. First off, they're the end goal of every physical class in the game; if you're a Swordsmaster, there's literally no reason to ever go for anything in the shop other then a magical sword (and maybe some niche items like the regal weapons or a lancereaver). Everyone is going for the magical weapons, and while their concept is nice, it feels like it's a rather boring and monotonous path. It's simply the only option to take. There's no real variety in that; you're going to go buy a magical weapon. Because of this, I feel like mixed classes would add a new take on things: now, instead of simply gunning for the first mystic sword you can get your hands on, you can instead buy a tome when you promote and fight using both your newly learned magic as well as your previous weapons. As a drawback, however, a mixed class could not buy magic weapons -- you already have magic, so why do you need more?
"Isn't this a bit broken combat-wise?": In my eyes? No. I can see some people thinking it would be too powerful; after all, you are giving people the chance to stab and burn people at the same time rather than just one or the other. However, it would have its own restrictions: for example, as stated previously, a mixed class could have a restriction implemented to where it could not purchase magical or regal weapons, whereas other classes still could. They also only get access to one type of magic, whereas most spellcasters get two types, meaning they won't be as well versed in spellslinging as someone who has spent their whole life doing it. They'd be a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Good with a spear, but not as good as a General; good at using some dark magic, but not as good as a Seer. Other restrictions could be implemented, but honestly I don't even see a need for them.
"What is the story justification of a person being trained in both magic and physical weaponry?": It's rather simple. They've trained. It's just like when an Archer becomes a Yeoman; believe it or not, being able to shoot a bow correctly has absolutely nothing to do with swinging a sword. And so the character begins to practice. First, they start out rather clumsy as they learn the ins-and-outs of their new weaponry, and as time goes on, the Yeoman becomes more and more comfortable with swinging that sword. Just like that, a Dark Knight also doesn't start out with the ability to swing that same sword, but they learn over time as they get more and more used to their weaponry. Now the other way around is a bit harder to justify. Starting as a physical class and learning magic when you're already at least in your late teens isn't easy, but it shouldn't be exactly difficult. It may take years, decades, to become proficient in magic, but keep in mind these mixed classes aren't exactly proficient at either of their tasks. They're above novice, yes, but they're not prodigies. With story justification, especially if the character has already been exposed to and has been practicing magic for a while (but has just never really gotten the hang of it until recently), it should be easily explained.
"What would they promote to at 500 posts?": This one actually got me for a bit. But here's my answer: they get one more physical weapon and one more type of magic. A Seer turning into an Archsage gets two more types of magic, whereas a General turning into a Champion gets two more types of physical weapons, so a mixed class at 500 posts would get one from each of these categories at their choice. Simple and efficient. A new category wouldn't need to be made for them, but one could if the mods so wished.
"What about reclassing issues? Couldn't a physical fighter reclass to a mixed class, then reclass to a full mage?": If the community doesn't want this, then ban it. I don't really think this could be explained in story, but in case it was explained fairly well and it proved to be too powerful for whatever reason that I cannot foresee, then just ban it. Simple as that. It can be as simple as "mixed classes cannot reclass." Done.
That's all I can think of at the moment. If you have any more concerns or things to add on, feel free to do so! Before I go, here's a list of all of the mixed classes I can think of that have been in the recent FE games (besides character exclusive classes). I'm not an expert at the older ones, so if you know of any of them, let me know!
Malig Knight (Axe/Tome, wyvern mount)
Dark Knight (Sword/Tome, horse mount)
Basara (Lance/Tome)
Dark Flier (Lance/Tome, pegasus mount -- if rules about pegasi being female-only are kept, then female-only class)
Dread Fighter (FE13 incarnation, Sword/Axe/Tome -- their appearances in FE2 and FE14 do not use magic)
Maid/Butler (Dagger/Staff)
Trickster (Sword/Staff - in Fates, they are known as Adventurers and use Bow/Staff)
Great Master (male-only class, Lance/Staff)
Priestess (female-only class, Bow/Staff)
Falcon Knight (FE14 incarnation, Lance/Staff, pegasus mount -- same rules as Dark Flier)
Not all of these would have to be implemented, of course. Just one or two that could be used in the setting and added to the promotion chart rather easily would be nice. Dark Flier, Malig Knight, and Trickster all could slide easily into place in the promotions without really messing anything up, as far as I'm aware of.
What do you all think?
EDIT I: I forgot to mention this. Because the tome-wielding classes are from newer games which do not have the magic triangle, they would need to be assigned magic types. This could easily be decided via group vote/poll, but in my eyes, Dark Knights and Dark Fliers would use Dark Magic (no way!), Basaras Light Magic, and Dread Fighters and Malig Knights Anima Magic.
EDIT II: Multiple people have explained (rightly so) concern for the higher level weapons, tomes, and staves being available to the same class. To remedy this, I suggest that the last two tomes/staves of any magic category and any weapons below "Silver" in any weapon category should be unavailable to a mixed class. However, this may be more of a problem with the class than can be fixed with a patch; it does have abuseable flaws, it seems, and adding too many rules may make it more cloggy and unnecessary than it's worth.
First off, when I say mixed classes, I mean a class that can use both tomes or staves as well as one or more physical weapons. Basically, classes that use both Magic and Strength, if you're going by gameplay terminology. As an example, the Trickster is a mixed class, using both a sword (or bow in Fates) and a staff.
Why should one consider even implementing some of these classes?
PROS
Better Roleplay Value: It allows a person options when they're creating their character to try and develop a person with a rich backstory and weaponry that suits that story. A Pegasus Knight, distraught that she cannot adequately protect her friends, turns to the nether to become a Dark Flier. A healer that has spent one too many of her days almost being turned to mangled remains by bonewalkers picks up a bow to become a Priestess. An honorable thief who helps the poor and needy decides to train himself in using a stave to heal the sick and wounded that cannot otherwise afford such care. It allows new routes to be taken when building characters' arsenals to better fit their backstory.
More Engaging Combat: Not only does it allow more avenues when building up the story of a character, it also allows you and your opponent to have more fun when fighting each other. It gives a new turn to the battle -- rather than simply bashing one another with swords all day or slinging spells at one another, you can do both! At the blink of an eye, a battle can turn from a fest of fireballs and thunder into a climatic clashing of locking blades. It gives more freedom when entering a battle and it keeps all parties involved on their toes. I'm not saying that combat here is boring -- it is very fun, from what I've seen so far -- but this adds another layer that I personally think would be much appreciated.
Note: To some, this may seem overpowered. This will be discussed below.
More Variety: Simply put, it gives players more options that don't severely impact others. It's not necessary by any means to have mixed classes, but it does open more paths for those who want to take that route while also keeping the other people mostly unharmed. It's highly unlikely that every battle is going to turn into the ones detailed above with an introduction of a mixed class; if you enjoy just two people locked in a duel with only steel in their hands, then you will still have plenty of opportunities to have that experience. If you are like me, however, and love both magic and might equally, a character who can use both would be an interesting choice.
However, this is not all happy and fun. There are some actual arguments against it, and I will try my best to answer all the ones I can think of as best as I can.
ARGUMENTS AGAINST - and my responses to them
"Don't we already have magic weapons?": It's true that, in the shop, there is the option to purchase your own mystical blade and give it an enchantment of your choice. This, by itself, does open a lot of variety -- the same variety that mixed classes would also bring. However, there's a problem that I see with them. First off, they're the end goal of every physical class in the game; if you're a Swordsmaster, there's literally no reason to ever go for anything in the shop other then a magical sword (and maybe some niche items like the regal weapons or a lancereaver). Everyone is going for the magical weapons, and while their concept is nice, it feels like it's a rather boring and monotonous path. It's simply the only option to take. There's no real variety in that; you're going to go buy a magical weapon. Because of this, I feel like mixed classes would add a new take on things: now, instead of simply gunning for the first mystic sword you can get your hands on, you can instead buy a tome when you promote and fight using both your newly learned magic as well as your previous weapons. As a drawback, however, a mixed class could not buy magic weapons -- you already have magic, so why do you need more?
"Isn't this a bit broken combat-wise?": In my eyes? No. I can see some people thinking it would be too powerful; after all, you are giving people the chance to stab and burn people at the same time rather than just one or the other. However, it would have its own restrictions: for example, as stated previously, a mixed class could have a restriction implemented to where it could not purchase magical or regal weapons, whereas other classes still could. They also only get access to one type of magic, whereas most spellcasters get two types, meaning they won't be as well versed in spellslinging as someone who has spent their whole life doing it. They'd be a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Good with a spear, but not as good as a General; good at using some dark magic, but not as good as a Seer. Other restrictions could be implemented, but honestly I don't even see a need for them.
"What is the story justification of a person being trained in both magic and physical weaponry?": It's rather simple. They've trained. It's just like when an Archer becomes a Yeoman; believe it or not, being able to shoot a bow correctly has absolutely nothing to do with swinging a sword. And so the character begins to practice. First, they start out rather clumsy as they learn the ins-and-outs of their new weaponry, and as time goes on, the Yeoman becomes more and more comfortable with swinging that sword. Just like that, a Dark Knight also doesn't start out with the ability to swing that same sword, but they learn over time as they get more and more used to their weaponry. Now the other way around is a bit harder to justify. Starting as a physical class and learning magic when you're already at least in your late teens isn't easy, but it shouldn't be exactly difficult. It may take years, decades, to become proficient in magic, but keep in mind these mixed classes aren't exactly proficient at either of their tasks. They're above novice, yes, but they're not prodigies. With story justification, especially if the character has already been exposed to and has been practicing magic for a while (but has just never really gotten the hang of it until recently), it should be easily explained.
"What would they promote to at 500 posts?": This one actually got me for a bit. But here's my answer: they get one more physical weapon and one more type of magic. A Seer turning into an Archsage gets two more types of magic, whereas a General turning into a Champion gets two more types of physical weapons, so a mixed class at 500 posts would get one from each of these categories at their choice. Simple and efficient. A new category wouldn't need to be made for them, but one could if the mods so wished.
"What about reclassing issues? Couldn't a physical fighter reclass to a mixed class, then reclass to a full mage?": If the community doesn't want this, then ban it. I don't really think this could be explained in story, but in case it was explained fairly well and it proved to be too powerful for whatever reason that I cannot foresee, then just ban it. Simple as that. It can be as simple as "mixed classes cannot reclass." Done.
That's all I can think of at the moment. If you have any more concerns or things to add on, feel free to do so! Before I go, here's a list of all of the mixed classes I can think of that have been in the recent FE games (besides character exclusive classes). I'm not an expert at the older ones, so if you know of any of them, let me know!
Malig Knight (Axe/Tome, wyvern mount)
Dark Knight (Sword/Tome, horse mount)
Basara (Lance/Tome)
Dark Flier (Lance/Tome, pegasus mount -- if rules about pegasi being female-only are kept, then female-only class)
Dread Fighter (FE13 incarnation, Sword/Axe/Tome -- their appearances in FE2 and FE14 do not use magic)
Maid/Butler (Dagger/Staff)
Trickster (Sword/Staff - in Fates, they are known as Adventurers and use Bow/Staff)
Great Master (male-only class, Lance/Staff)
Priestess (female-only class, Bow/Staff)
Falcon Knight (FE14 incarnation, Lance/Staff, pegasus mount -- same rules as Dark Flier)
Not all of these would have to be implemented, of course. Just one or two that could be used in the setting and added to the promotion chart rather easily would be nice. Dark Flier, Malig Knight, and Trickster all could slide easily into place in the promotions without really messing anything up, as far as I'm aware of.
What do you all think?
EDIT I: I forgot to mention this. Because the tome-wielding classes are from newer games which do not have the magic triangle, they would need to be assigned magic types. This could easily be decided via group vote/poll, but in my eyes, Dark Knights and Dark Fliers would use Dark Magic (no way!), Basaras Light Magic, and Dread Fighters and Malig Knights Anima Magic.
EDIT II: Multiple people have explained (rightly so) concern for the higher level weapons, tomes, and staves being available to the same class. To remedy this, I suggest that the last two tomes/staves of any magic category and any weapons below "Silver" in any weapon category should be unavailable to a mixed class. However, this may be more of a problem with the class than can be fixed with a patch; it does have abuseable flaws, it seems, and adding too many rules may make it more cloggy and unnecessary than it's worth.