True Gender Neutral

[Selibas]

Dem feminazis r alwys taken r rights.

In some discussion, gender restricted classes have been brought up. I think that any gender restriction is honestly a bit weird for the setting we have set up, despite the games having some obvious examples of classes that only have male or female characters in it.

Valkyries
This is one that I think makes the most sense to change. I do not see why a male mage can learn to do magic on a horse, or a male shaman can learn to do their magic on a horse, while bishops are stuck on their feet. Realistically, a mounted light magic and stave using class would have the same drawbacks as their anima and dark counterparts.

Now, a big argument for this one is obviously the name. A Valkyrie is a woman, as the myth goes, not a man. However, then a Valkyrie would also be an angelic Pegasus rider. So the name is still gender restrictive without necessarily holding a strict meaning. A few years back, four or five if memory serves, we changed another name that sounded gender restrictive: Monk. Monk was changed to Acolyte, to provide a more universal name for a class open to both male and female characters. Why not do the same for Valkyrie, allowing male characters to fulfill the same role, and both guys and gals to be in the same class. A good name could be Malakim (messenger angels, bit iffy).

Mage Knight
This goes sort of hand in hand with the Valkyrie, though it would not require any sort of name change. Female Sages exist, so it makes sense that as one took a level in badass they could hop on a horse instead of just going with a nicer cloak. This one even has in game examples, with a General of Grado and a purple haired know-it-all being [possible] Mage Knights.

Pegasus Knights
Ah, here it is. The argument that makes Selibas look like a huge idiot. Pegasus Knights have, until FE 14 been EXCLUSIVELY FEMALE. That's just how the games work. It's fine, it's dandy, it's cool in the games. I've never understood it, but hey, the games are games, I've never understood why none of the royalty in Sacred Stones wouldn't recognize Joshua, but I don't try to change it. This is kind of a different story though.

I believe that in Fire Emblem, males are stated to make Pegasi feel uncomfortable. That makes absolutely no sense for two reasons. A. Gameplay: A Peg Class can rescue male units. If there's any possible way for a man to get close to a Peg without it wigging out, realistically someone would learn a way to train them to accept males. Horses aren't always born comfortable with a rider. B. Mythology: This is the part I like best. Bellerophon is a pretty cool dude. You know that movie Clash of the Titans where Perseus rides Pegasus? That didn't happen. Dude had winged boots from Hermes, and Pegasus was only born when he killed Medusa. The real, sole mortal rider of Pegasus, was this dude named Bellerophon. So we have one standard Pegasus in one of the best regarded mythical pantheons of the world, and his rider, was a dude.

Now there's a massive argument that can be thrown in my face here. MAGIC! Which incidentally is one of the hardest things to argue with. It could be said that Pegasus in Elibe have some characteristic inside them that basically says, "No matter what, a guy isn't gonna be alone with you." My question for that is, why? Why do we want the Pegasi of Elibe to be the sixteen year old daughter of a shotgun enthusiast from Arkansas, but like, magical?

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I'm certain there are arguments for these classes staying the same. I just think that the board could be opened up a bit in terms of gender based class.

[Donovan]

I agree with all of this - especially that Mage knights and Valkyries should begender neutral. I think a good gender neutral name for Valks would be Crusader!

[Kyle]

I'd prefer keeping it as it is since the site is based off the games and we'd just seem to stray further if we removed gender specific classes. Plus there isn't really much to gain. And then there is Sakura. Also, are Mage knights Gender specific here? Because I do remember some female Mage knights in the games.

[Remus]

Mage knights are not gender specific in the games. In Sacred Stones Selena was a mage knight. The other two were gender specific.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I though so, Because I remember always making Lute a mage knight even though sages were better.

[Kenshin]

Oct 16, 2015 12:17:45 GMT -6 Selibas said:

Dem feminazis r alwys taken r rights.

In some discussion, gender restricted classes have been brought up. I think that any gender restriction is honestly a bit weird for the setting we have set up, despite the games having some obvious examples of classes that only have male or female characters in it.

Valkyries
This is one that I think makes the most sense to change. I do not see why a male mage can learn to do magic on a horse, or a male shaman can learn to do their magic on a horse, while bishops are stuck on their feet. Realistically, a mounted light magic and stave using class would have the same drawbacks as their anima and dark counterparts.


Now, a big argument for this one is obviously the name. A Valkyrie is a woman, as the myth goes, not a man. However, then a Valkyrie would also be an angelic Pegasus rider. So the name is still gender restrictive without necessarily holding a strict meaning. A few years back, four or five if memory serves, we changed another name that sounded gender restrictive: Monk. Monk was changed to Acolyte, to provide a more universal name for a class open to both male and female characters. Why not do the same for Valkyrie, allowing male characters to fulfill the same role, and both guys and gals to be in the same class. A good name could be Malakim (messenger angels, bit iffy).

That's the thing. Valkyries is a light based class so Shaman, male or female, cannot select this as a promotion path. Shaman mounted promotion is the Seer class. What we can do is drop the split in the gender for Troubadours so female can become Seer and male can become Valkyries.

Mage Knight
This goes sort of hand in hand with the Valkyrie, though it would not require any sort of name change. Female Sages exist, so it makes sense that as one took a level in badass they could hop on a horse instead of just going with a nicer cloak. This one even has in game examples, with a General of Grado and a purple haired know-it-all being [possible] Mage Knights.

This actually has a path for females to take to get to, two to be exact. Mage and Troubadours are both gender friendly here(Wylie the Wrestler being the first male Troubadour) and that's not including the prepromote option.

Pegasus Knights
Ah, here it is. The argument that makes Selibas look like a huge idiot. Pegasus Knights have, until FE 14 been EXCLUSIVELY FEMALE. That's just how the games work. It's fine, it's dandy, it's cool in the games. I've never understood it, but hey, the games are games, I've never understood why none of the royalty in Sacred Stones wouldn't recognize Joshua, but I don't try to change it. This is kind of a different story though.

I believe that in Fire Emblem, males are stated to make Pegasi feel uncomfortable. That makes absolutely no sense for two reasons. A. Gameplay: A Peg Class can rescue male units. If there's any possible way for a man to get close to a Peg without it wigging out, realistically someone would learn a way to train them to accept males. Horses aren't always born comfortable with a rider. B. Mythology: This is the part I like best. Bellerophon is a pretty cool dude. You know that movie Clash of the Titans where Perseus rides Pegasus? That didn't happen. Dude had winged boots from Hermes, and Pegasus was only born when he killed Medusa. The real, sole mortal rider of Pegasus, was this dude named Bellerophon. So we have one standard Pegasus in one of the best regarded mythical pantheons of the world, and his rider, was a dude.

Now there's a massive argument that can be thrown in my face here. MAGIC! Which incidentally is one of the hardest things to argue with. It could be said that Pegasus in Elibe have some characteristic inside them that basically says, "No matter what, a guy isn't gonna be alone with you." My question for that is, why? Why do we want the Pegasi of Elibe to be the sixteen year old daughter of a shotgun enthusiast from Arkansas, but like, magical?

I may be wrong here, but isn't in myths(outside of greek) Pegi only allow maidens to even touch them? Or am I thinking of Unicorns(which FE Pegi seem to resemble with wings)? I think that's where the whole FE thing came from pre-fates. Personally I like tying in myths if we can. As far as the whole rescuing male units. Wouldn't it suck that you have that one unit about to die, you use a flying mount to swoop in to rescue them only to find out they can't based on gender? I think it was game machinics vs story and the developers went in favor of play-ability. Pre-Shadow Dragon we didn't have the option of becoming Opera and giving everybody a flying mount(not really sure about Shadow Dragon itself, never got that far in it but I know you can class change), mounted units were amazing when it came to saving a unit about to die and flying ones made it just that much easier and limiting that factor would be lame.

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I'm certain there are arguments for these classes staying the same. I just think that the board could be opened up a bit in terms of gender based class.

While I'm more than willing to edit out (male) and (female) when it comes to Seer and Valkyries, I would like to see at least Pegasi being a female only class. It feels more FE than just pure fantasy to me, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's not going to happen but I want to toss my two cents into the hand when it comes to that.

[Nayru Al-Saiduq]

Bishops have a unique and powerful skill accessible to no other magic user - if they also had the mobility of a mounted class they'd be pretty crazy. I got nothing against a male light/staff horse rider, but Bishop specifically is probably not the best example to use here.

As Hal noted though, Mage Knights are already gender neutral.

Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better off just jacking a variation of Nocturne's system for magic users and doing away with the current magic user promo limitations.

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SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}Mage - students of anima magic who attack foes with blasts of fire, wind, and lightning

Magics	Advanced	Elite
Anima/Light	Sage	Archsage
Anima/Dark	Warlock/Witch	Sorcerer
Anima/Staff	Ascetic	Exalt

Acolyte - (usually) pious magicians who pass judgement with blasts of consecrated light

Magics	Advanced	Elite
Light/Anima	Sage	Archsage
Light/Dark	Initiate	Avatar
Light/Staff	Bishop	Saint

Shaman - initiates of the dark arts who attack with living shadows and congealed darkness

Magics	Advanced	Elite
Dark/Anima	Druid	Archdruid
Dark/Light	Initiate	Avatar
Dark/Staff	Seer	Oracle

Cleric - (usually) unassuming staff users who wield rare staves for defense and utility

Magics	Advanced	Elite
Staff/Anima	Ascetic	Exalt
Staff/Light	Bishop	Saint
Staff/Dark	Seer	Oracle

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I don't like that pegasus riders are basically "hardcore fighting lady" or "useless newbie wuss" - it seems like the gender limitation, rather than doing much to add flavor and options, is just limiting them to those two dots on the spectrum. But that's probably less of a rules thing and more on potential pegasus riders, and there's nothing inherently wrong with those two stereotypes.

Does seem a bit unfair that wyverns are gender neutral while pegasi aren't, though, considering that the original pegasus was a male stallion, born from a male god (who also happened to be the god of horses), whose main claim to fame was letting a male hero ride him to do stuff. In fact, I could be wrong but I don't think any aspect of pegasi were ever explicitly feminine or chick-only, it was a dude thing from the very start and (some) FEs made it female-only.

Unicorns were the creatures that were virgin female only, and even that was just middle ages evolution of the legend, the original greek mythology had nothing to do with females only.

I mean, if we're gonna do the pegasi=females only thing, that's fine, it's flavor stuff that I'm not violently against and has some basis in FE, but neither am I especially for it. We've changed stuff from the games before to better fit in RP, we can do it again if we want to, question is just if it's worth changing.

[Gavin]

To add context before dropping my two cents, the unicorn became very heavy in myth and appearance during the artistic periods of history.

It was a creature of purity and grace. Thus, their constant portrayal of it being white. While sometimes it shifted as to if it was a horse or it was a goat, it was ALWAYS white, and they wanted to make it the actual embodiment of purity. In that time period, nothing was more pure then a virgin. So, as artists often do, they added symbolism outside of the artistic focus to allow others to draw a comparison. Putting females with the unicorn often coupled with the fact that it was already white(the color of a virgin in artistic representation) began to effectively tether the two together. This is where the foundation was laid for the fact that unicorns only like women. Thats right folks. Not only did they only like women..but they had to be virgin women.

That being said..I can see both aspects of this.

I personally, while hating gender locks in mmos, think that the concept of all female Ilian Knights who are just as tough as any wyvern rider, is bad ass as all hell. I like the close associating with it. Not to mention that it is within the fire emblem lore. Just as anyone who has a wyvern rider has to have a reason they aren't from Bern, or otherwise come from Bern since wyverns only come from Bern, this is an instance of holding to Mythos. It's ultimately a choice of, do we want to hold to the mythos with pegs liking women only or not.

However, as I've told a few already, I would probably one of the first to have a male peg knight because it would also be fun to roleplay. I think...that is ultimately what forms the bulk of my final opinion on the matter.

To expound on that.

It wouldn't be impossible, to lay out male pegs as a recent thing. Perhaps a pegasai's rider died, and it was left in the care of a male that helped it recover from this experience. Similar to an actual horse witnessing it's owner or caretaker/rider die; these experiences can be horrible for them and life altering. This pegasai ultimately becoming attached to the male and allowing him to be her new rider. The pegasi she would eventually birth, being ones that allow males to handle them as well. Or it could be as simple as saying "It is rare. REALLY rare, but some pegasi will let men ride them."

Would it be fun? Possibly. At the end of the day it's just a matter of do we stick to this aspect in the mythos or not. I'm...sorta where Nayru is. I'm on the fence. I could see why we should change it, and would even roleplay as one with a cool idea already in my head; I could also however see why we would want to keep it as it stands now.

[Richter Abend]

I'm onboard for all the changes save for Pegasus Knights. While the actual "Pegasus" of myth had no issues with men and whatnot, the Fire Emblem Pegasai pull that particular trope from Unicorns, like Gavin said, and other than dude Pegasus riders, I don't see what is to gain from watering down that but of lore. IMO it adds flavor to the board mythos where otherwise there would be none.

It's like if we had an Amazon class. Sure, we COULD make dude Amazons, but why?

[Zacharia]

I'm for both Valkyrie and Pegasi classes being universally gender neutral. I'm especially for not using any loopholes or workarounds in the system to roll one; that feels unnecessary.

I'm kinda stubborn about my distaste for genderlocks in most any game; unless it's something that like, only a man or a woman can do, there isn't a big reason to separate some classes from the rest of the pool in the first place. Apart from the name, Valkyrie doesn't have an reason in the RP to be an exclusively female class. Especially so when the majority of the Valkyrie's appearances use Anima instead of Light, effectively making them Mage Knights. I'd be fine with keeping the name regardless of mythos; "Valkyrie" is a pretty kickass name, after all. I'm also down for "Malakim", "Crusader", "Justice", "Erudite", etc.

Unlike Valkyries, Elibe's pegasi have some precedent in being exclusively ridden by females. They loosely borrow from unicorns in that only women can ride them(instead of exclusively virgin maidens). I'd be fine with keeping pegasi classes as is, but if there's even the smallest chance of introducing male pegasus knights/falcos/seraphs into the mix, I'm with that all the way. It might add flavor to the world, but I feel that ultimately it's an unnecessary evil. (way to go FE14 for first playable female fighters and peg knights, yay)

[Dietrich Landrik]

I'm good with what we have. Classes are distinct and it's left up to the RP'er to show just how they use and bend the confines they are given to tell a good story. It also allows for the other RP'ers to have an idea about what sort of character they're interacting with even though if you were to talk about classes and class limitations IC, they'd give you a blank stare and walk away nervously or wonder if you were speaking of the nobility.

In short, refer to my first sentence.

[Rilcha Winters]

Oct 18, 2015 11:41:19 GMT -6 Richter Abend said:

It's like if we had an Amazon class. Sure, we COULD make dude Amazons, but why?

Can we call female brigands 'Amazons?'