Myrmidon/Mercenary Promotions

[Nayru Al-Saiduq]

Currently, Myrmidons have the option of promoting to Swordmaster or Yeoman, while Mercenaries can promote to Hero or Assassin.

That seems kind of weird to me - Assassin is a swordlocked specialist class (sound familiar?) while Yeoman is a versatile hybrid dual-weapon class (again, sound familiar?). Additionally, Assassin is consistently a Myrmidon promotion in the two branching-promotion FEs that have had both classes.

On a more conceptual level, the whole point of Myrmidons is that they really REALLY like swords and murdering things fast whereas the Merc concept is more of a versatile sword user who typically promotes into classes that offer even more versatility with solid survivability. I get the very tenuous link between killing for hire->killing for hire BUT EDGY, but the most common refrain on the site is that your class doesn't determine your job, just your approach to combat, and Mercenary/Assassin don't have much else in common.

Thus, I think it'd make sense to either switch the Yeoman/Assassin promo lines, or at least give Myrm the third option of Assassin if you really want to push the Myrmidon->Yeoman angle. There is precedent in the 5 other classes with 3 promo options after all.

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Bonus nitpick: the Arcadia section in CaW cuts off early (should end in "and your character is not that special.")

[Kenshin]

Okay, this is an explanation of why it is like it today, not an argument for or against anything:

As for Myrmidons -> Assasins I don't really agree, not in the supply of FE7 ish setting this bears as the main suppliers of Myrmidons, are the noble and honest people of the plains, ASsasins are the murdereous and silent killers formed by Society. Also Mymidons are Sword users, quality swords, especailly in the games, Assasins are knife users when you get down to it and go for precision, accuracy and lethality, Mymidons in my mind are Skill fighters, not power or Lethal. hey they're only lethal becuase of their insane skill

A member back then had posted that, in FE8 it made sense based on class styles but when it came to the FE7 each named Myrmidons were all from Sacae bar for Lloyd(which fan headcanon was he was trained by a Sacaen). In a sense, that almost still holds up true here for the most part. Assassin changed to Yeoman here was because of majority of the named Sacaens used either a sword or bow, originally they had wanted Merc->Hero or Yeoman but it wouldn't make sense for two almost identical RP classes go into the same promoted class*.

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Now, this part is opening up to a site discussion:

Personally, I'm fine as is. I like the whole lorish view behind Myrm not going Assassin, as far as the whole Merc into Assassin I had originally been against it back then because the argument for it was "both are paid to fight", which I had mentioned class=/=profession but now I guess I can say I "like" it. Like Assassins are viewed as "evil" so it's kinda they have the option to become a Hero or become a villain and go Assassin, like it's a character development thing.

Now, this is where I'm adding in my two cents and where I leave it to everybody to chime in.


*I'm not counting thief in that equation because Merc/Myrm are combat focused where Thief isn't.

[Nayru Al-Saiduq]

Dec 28, 2016 18:00:27 GMT -6 Kenshin said:

Okay, this is an explanation of why it is like it today, not an argument for or against anything:

As for Myrmidons -> Assasins I don't really agree, not in the supply of FE7 ish setting this bears as the main suppliers of Myrmidons, are the noble and honest people of the plains, ASsasins are the murdereous and silent killers formed by Society. Also Mymidons are Sword users, quality swords, especailly in the games, Assasins are knife users when you get down to it and go for precision, accuracy and lethality, Mymidons in my mind are Skill fighters, not power or Lethal. hey they're only lethal becuase of their insane skill

A member back then had posted that, in FE8 it made sense based on class styles but when it came to the FE7 each named Myrmidons were all from Sacae bar for Lloyd(which fan headcanon was he was trained by a Sacaen). In a sense, that almost still holds up true here for the most part. Assassin changed to Yeoman here was because of majority of the named Sacaens used either a sword or bow, originally they had wanted Merc->Hero or Yeoman but it wouldn't make sense for two almost identical RP classes go into the same promoted class*.

---

Now, this part is opening up to a site discussion:

Personally, I'm fine as is. I like the whole lorish view behind Myrm not going Assassin, as far as the whole Merc into Assassin I had originally been against it back then because the argument for it was "both are paid to fight", which I had mentioned class=/=profession but now I guess I can say I "like" it. Like Assassins are viewed as "evil" so it's kinda they have the option to become a Hero or become a villain and go Assassin, like it's a character development thing.

Now, this is where I'm adding in my two cents and where I leave it to everybody to chime in.


*I'm not counting thief in that equation because Merc/Myrm are combat focused where Thief isn't.

Ok, I admit, the hero/villain sort of concept for Merc promo is actually pretty cool, I'll retract that part of the suggestion, though I still think it'd be cool if they got Yeoman for the utility angle.

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I don't think the Myrm/Sacae connection is a strong argument though - only 10 out of 33 Myrmidons on the site are Sacaen, and of those 10 most aren't especially honorable. Treating it as though ALL Myrmidons are stereotypical Sacaens is just doing a disservice to the vast majority of Myrmidons here who... aren't. It's a specious argument based off of perception not fact; we go on about how your class isn't your job or your life, so why enforce it on Myrms only?

Similarly, the sword/knife argument falls apart considering that games with both classes/branching DO allow myrm->assassin promotion, and further we don't enforce that Assassins use knives here either - they just have the Swords weapon type. There's no mechanical difference in the games, they just equip swords.

Finally, there's a certain level of irony in allowing Mercs the choice between hero and villain, but not offering Myrms the option between mastering the sword for its own sake or for the sake of killing - sort of a thematic choice that I believe would fit them quite well.

[Circe Alexandra]

I am inclined to agree with Nayru on this one, and I had to write this twice because PS4 Browser is cancer.

As for Myrmidon, I get the whole "Sacae" thing they have going on in-game. But this isn't the Elibe games. We've had Myrmidons from Bern, Ilia, Nabata, and so forth with 0 ties to Sacae. Not to mention, if you did want to play a hyper Sacaen swordsman who becomes an assassin, they have to go Mercenary to do it. Which is a bit weird thematically.

As for the "honorable swordsmen" thing you seem to have going on for Myrmidon lore...idk I don't buy it. That probably only works with stereotypical Sacaens, and many Myrmidons on here have not been from Sacae. But it is odd that Mercenary has the "Honor"/"Evil" angle and Myrmidon has "Honor"/"...?" to match.

[Selibas]

I've never understood the Merc -> Assassin thing, like I get that classes are more of a broad guideline, but the sturdiest swordsman going to a flimsier class has never made much sense to me. I'm very much for a switch of the two promotions, giving Yeoman to Merc, but wouldn't have any issue with Myrms having the option to promote to Yeomen still.

[Vincent]

Well as a player who was torn between the two classes for a time I can say the thematic of hero/villain was a huge point for me. Also, Vincent has always been a character who even as a mercenary liked to take a lot from myrmidons and other classes. So class =/= play style. That said there can be evil Heroes. There is simply no draw to become an assassin mechanically when you can add a new weapon type to the arsenal and still act like an assassin when you want to.

[Donovan]

(Let's get all the main Mercs in here)

I personally agree with Selibas, that from a mechanic standpoint, it doesn't make sense to me for a mercenary to go assassin based off of what an assassin's skillset and armor class is. That said, I really like the Dark side, light side lore thing you said, Kenshin.

Ultimately, though. I think Mercenary would make the most sense having a three promotion options; Hero, Yeoman, and Halberdier. I think that Mercenaries, from a class stand point are more likely to aim to diversify as much as possible, either going Hero and gaining more force with an Axe, Yeoman and gaining heavy range, or Halberdier and getting a medium range lance option.

[Eris Coulson]

I like Mercenary going Halberdier a lot actually. More than Yeoman.

[Yaen]

Dec 29, 2016 3:51:43 GMT -6 Nayru Al-Saiduq said:

I don't think the Myrm/Sacae connection is a strong argument though - only 10 out of 33 Myrmidons on the site are Sacaen, and of those 10 most aren't especially honorable. Treating it as though ALL Myrmidons are stereotypical Sacaens is just doing a disservice to the vast majority of Myrmidons here who... aren't.

You what, mate?

[Kisaragi]

To play devil's advocate, we DO have some precedent for medium->light armor in terms of Soldier->Lancer, but that was kind of a jury rigged solution class wise so not necessarily a good defense lol.

I REALLY like Don's idea with Halberdier personally. I think it makes a lot of sense for the ultimate generalist class to have a lot of generalist options, including a lance one. It also leaves Assassin open for the typical Myrm/Thief promo line. Yeoman works for both Myrm and Merc imo.

I think it would be fine to do Mercenary->Hero/Halberdier/Yeoman and Myrmidon->Swordmaster/Assassin/Yeoman.

[Orcleous]

(AS Don wishes)

I for one like the idea of a mercenary classing up into a Halberdier. Versatility is something a mercenary would want. As a side note however I like the idea of a Assassin. Most people who think of assassin think of a stealthy guy who sneaks around killing people. However a assassin does not always have to be stealthy. Like the orc in oblivion said, you don't have to be stealthy to murder people. Just walk right up to them and hit them with a axe in the face. Then use your good armor to fight your way out of the situation.

[Donovan]

But, Buto, Assassin doesn't detail someone's job. It more details their fighting style in a general way.

[Eris Coulson]

I second Nayru here