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Post by Drei on May 27, 2017 19:57:07 GMT -6
Well she certainly seemed to have solid well rounded interests in historical and magical contexts. Though the cylindrical healing pods was fairly interesting to him as well. Especially if it was something that could theoretically be replicated. That was just appealing in general. Though he himself had no interest in the healing magics and did not realistically see himself as the type to wield staves, he did see the heavy importance on the ability to house such a creation. The ability for people across Elibe, without the wait or need of a healer to simply place the injured or wounded or ailing individual in a pod that would cleanse their body of problems? It could easily secure a better future. He tabbed his chin quietly. Speaking in idle thought.
"I take hope in the acknowledgment that if it was created once, it could be again. The outlying factor's that brought about it's initial construction might not be present but the base potential in the human mind would still exist. With someone as intelligent as you also around, just having knowledge of such an amazing construct might be enough to eventually bring about its return. If Etruria obtained it I doubt they'd intend to share such a wonderful thing with the world should they even be able to replicate it."
Pre-scouring Astronomy. That was a very precise focus. Though her later focuses seemed to have such sad tones to them comparatively. Disproving any major civilization or focal point of fascination in the historically informed community was likely unpleasant. The ashen haired shaman quietly tapped his chin again before speaking up once more.
"What rumors have you found to be validated, if any? I'm curious what you have discovered or affirmed on the topic."
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Post by Althea on May 27, 2017 20:58:24 GMT -6
"Perhaps." She was not entirely convinced but not quite able to argue Drei's point either, leaving Althea in an awkward impasse of sorts that forced her to speak her mind to explain. "Many things are possible, but mankind is ill fit to actually recreate or use them once more. In the thirteen hundred years since the Scouring, how many truly new magical advances have been made? What happened to the floating citadels, the communal magic, the teleport arrays and automated doorways that once existed?" PROBABLY existed, technically, the evidence was circumstantial at best for some of those things, but she liked to believe they had all been real nonetheless. "Men like Kraft, Hargus, the former king of Bern, the Marquesses of Lycia who squabble among themselves... I fear sometimes that mankind has truly lost the ability to collaborate on such wondrous creations. Even if we did manage to recreate some, who is to say that they would be used in the name of peace? Those very healing automated apparatuses, if they are indeed real and functional, are likely in use by the elite of the Etrurian military at this very moment to aid them in their desire to purge Elibe of all other religions. Lycia could turn the tide of war against Etruria, if they could but agree on who among them is fit to lead."
The dark mage shook her head regretfully. "Drei, I want to believe in the goodness of humanity. I truly do. Over the years I have met a few individuals who were... truly good hearted, kind and loving, who give me hope that there is still a future for our kind." Looking back up to him, though, there was not a great deal of hope at all to be found in her eyes. "But I fear that we lost far more in the Scouring than a bunch of overgrown lizards. A part of me wonders if humanity did not die alongside its slavemasters, and we humans are but the husks left behind."
Well, that was optimistic.
"It... also makes me wonder if perhaps there was more value to our kind's relationship with dragons than was realized at the times. Emotional, intellectual, I know not. But what has humanity become now compared to what we were once capable of? I cannot help but feel that in the end, the Scouring was a war with no victors. Only survivors."
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Post by Drei on May 30, 2017 18:39:40 GMT -6
"As long as humanity has recorded their history, horrible individuals have existed. These individuals have gone to great lengths to steal and cheat and lie and strong-arm their way to higher powers and authority. However if they attempt to horde that which is so readily accessible to the public, they can not. If people across all Elibe knew how to construct these healing pods you speak of, Etruria could not confiscate them all. Elibe is too large a place for their hand to reach easily to every corner. It'd be no different if they tried to stop people from using healing staves. Sure, within Etruria they could limit it. The rest of Elibe wouldn't follow their sanctions however. Though you do raise a valid point if we extended Etruria's proclivity for hording it to all of Elibe's ruling elite. That could certainly devoid the common man of a wonderful creation that should rightfully be embraced by all. I suppose...it's left to individual scholar's and artificers."
He paused, clearing his throat with a quiet cough into his closed palm before continuing, returning Althea's gaze as she looked to him.
"I believe that we will have to learn to make the world a better place with both good and bad rulers. Society itself will seldom ever have a choice in such matters and must develop to maintain quality living and safety despite it. There are many good people in the world...but far more bad ones in my experience. Which means that there will likely be more bad rulers than good. So unless we plan to replace the bad ones with good ones, which in turn may require doing bad things, we must adapt. Humanity's ultimate talent, I think. "
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Post by Althea on May 31, 2017 14:16:06 GMT -6
"And the problem always traces back to Etruria," she stated dourly, having cut to the heart of what she viewed as the issue. Yes, there were madmen across Elibe and across history, but rarely did they hold enough widespread absolute power to really constrict knowledge; more commonly it was simply hardship, bandits, or lack of funding, and since the Scouring lack of connections, that retarded magical progress. "An absolute theocracy that grinds progress to dust in its wake, whose single minded goal of jihad warps what development it is responsible for into weapons of war." It always, always came back to the crazed Kraft and his legion of mind-slaves. The problem of course was that that problem could not be solved with pretty words and idle gestures; he and his kind had proven that time and time again. Appeasement only allowed them to abuse others, and now both Ilia and Sacae paid the price as well as Lycia already had.
But the alternative - crushing them through force of arms and purity of belief - wasn't really a huge step up either. What happened if Elibe took him down? Would it be another Bern situation in which another country, very possibly Ilia again, took control and enslaved and taxed the citizenry for revenge and self-benefit? It was a miracle that the resurgent Bern had not held too strong a grudge against their Ilian oppressors. Despite her lack of affiliation Althea suspected that if she had been Bernese, she definitely would have disliked Ilia to say the least in the wake of those events.
"Adapting..." Tolerance was not Althea's strongest suit. She recognized that. Attempted to make up for it. When she saw errors, mistakes, cruelty, misjudgment, she wanted to fix things. The idea of just 'being ok with' a bad ruler was strange and alien to her as compared to barely tolerating their existence. But at the same time. It wasn't like she didn't have any experience with working around bad rulers; that was how she still had research partners within Etruria, interacted with them from a distance at times. "Perhaps you are right. All we can do is - what we can do. That sounded better in my head. Unless one fancies themselves a revolutionary, at any rate, but I hardly envision a positive response to a dark mage going around killing kings."
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Post by Drei on Jun 2, 2017 18:24:28 GMT -6
She wasn't wrong about Etruria. However he knew she knew that, and he knew she knew he knew that. Stating such would only be stating the obvious in more ways than one. So he settled for lightly nodding in wake of her astute observation. Drei's fingers lacing slowly together as he bridged them and gazed pointedly to Althea. Drei's eyes quietly observing her as she started to speak of adaption. He'd chuckled quietly at her phrasing however before letting a grin stain his studious features prior. The Shaman leaning forward with an almost failed attempt at a serious tone, his expression betwixt the state of humorous and severe.
"It sounded better when you spoke it, heh. I promise you."
Humor? When had he acquired such strange talents!?
"Revolutions are...an ugly thing. Necessary at times, but people do not realize that the transition of power and repercussions are disastrous ones if handled poorly. Sometimes more so than the regime which reigned. In Etruria as it stands, the average person is not living a negative life. A muted one, no doubt. It is their neighbors that suffer however, especially in the wake of the news you've told me. To this end it becomes a question of how much of Etruria would have to be changed to prevent a total collapse. To this end, things become far more complex. Though er...you are right. Were those wielding the Nether to begin deposing kings, the world would find itself unified against a newly perceived threat. Elder magic as a whole. That does not mean a dark mage could spark the flames that lead to such events from a more suited individual though. All it takes really, is a dream, and the will to act. Cliche and romanticized though that no doubt sounds."
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Post by Althea on Jun 5, 2017 21:13:46 GMT -6
It was... nice to have someone to joke with. Even if she wasn't very good at it. Althea allowed a tentative shy smile at Drei's own mirth though there was little else she could offer on account of being terminally unfunny. The ongoing discussion, however, was an opportunity to stretch her limbs for some nice mental gymnastics, as thought provoking as... most of their discussions seemed to be honestly. "It... does make one wonder what an Etruria after Kraft would look like," she said quietly, thoughtfully, not having thought too much about it before. "If Eliminism would survive its false prophet... it is said that the resurrected Saint Elimine herself blessed him, though, which may or may not be true, but the damage itself may already be done. If Etruria does fall I would not be surprised to see the religion take a terrible blow, perhaps even be outlawed by the occupying force if Elibe once again takes the approach that it did in dealing with the defeated Bern."
That was - not a subject she found particularly interested, or was emotionally passionate about. As far as Althea was concerned, Ilians were all money grubbing sellswords and Bern was a bunch of backward militaristic bumpkins, stereotypes that she knew perfectly well were not actually factual but both couched in enough truth that she didn't care either way, what they did to each other was an irrelevance. But it did raise questions on the recent past. "As well as how... thoroughly the governing structure would need to be dismantled. Tribunals for war crimes. The church's complicity in those atrocities. Etruria might be left without any real guiding body at all if they lost the war badly enough... and I... do not believe that those who had lost loved ones to the church would ever be able to truly forgive them," she finished off looking aside. Althea knew full well that she would likely not be able to herself. Not after what it had done. Not after what normal Etrurians had done in its name.
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Post by Drei on Jun 6, 2017 11:06:06 GMT -6
Right. So he was still a fairly devoid shell of a human, in his own mind, but when Althea'd smiled to Drei he felt his pulse quicken. Was it just because he wasn't used to joking around and giving someone else prompt to smile? He couldn't tell, truth be told. It was just a strange feeling. Luckily he wouldn't have to dwell on it because the next topic they'd segmented into came down upon his chest and spirits like a hammer made of raw metal falling from the highest tower to the lowest pit. Etruria was Eliminism. Something he'd figured out the hard way. He knew some people in Etruria. Some good honest people, and believed entirely that they were good hearted souls. That did not however change the fact that Etruria as it was, was pure evil. Drei shifted a bit, having calmed from their brief moment of levity.
"Though I've only been within their boarders a few times it has always seemed like Etruria is Eliminism. The faith woven so heavily into the very foundation of the country that the only way to fully remove the faith from the people themselves would be to obliterate their culture and population entirely. Like removing the practice of wyvern riding from Bern, or Mercenary professions from Ilian Culture, or sand from Nabata or...arguing from Lycian Politics."
Okay he didn't think there was enough static to all of Lycia to narrow it down.
"Though the outside countries of Elibe might attempt to outlaw it, I think that would require a singular ruling body within Elibe universally to enforce it upon Etruria itself. Even then that...would likely only unify the population as a whole against the rest of the world. You are right though, that is if the defeat of Etruria is handled like with Bern. This situation may be different however. From what I recall, Etruria's military was colossal. Years and years of amassing such a power and ferocity combined with the most gifted magical minds known to most of Elibe. Only half their country's length need be reached to find Kraft, should he remain within his tower. That leaves the rest of Etruria's expanse and military garrisons in-tact. I do not know that the armies of Elibe even unified could fully vanquish Etruria's power, and maintain enough strength to defend themselves while occupying Etruria. Though...I hardly profess myself to be any expert on war."
He paused for a moment. Forgiveness? He did not see himself forgiving them. Ever. He would not shed a tear if the whole of Etruria was reduced to a burning wasteland of decay and corpses.
"It is a situation that Elibe has not quite seen the caliber of in some time. It will certainly determine the course of history for quite some time to come. You are right though. There...will be resentment. A lasting resentment. "
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Post by Althea on Jun 11, 2017 2:15:48 GMT -6
"Etruria as Eliminism..." Althea looked about as happy with that idea as she was - which was to say not at all, to the surprise of absolutely no one. What a shock, the Etrurian who hated Etruria because Etrurians had killed her family (who were also Etrurians)... didn't like Etruria. Or Eliminism, the religion that had infected Etrur-ok she was getting tired of that word. Point was, they could both go to hell as far as she was concerned. "You may be correct. I... do not understand the groupthink that would allow good men and women to become what Eliminism is turning them into, nor how one could reverse that programming. I fear it would take one with far more patience and kindness in their hearts than I." She smiled, but only slightly, harshly; a ghost of a glimpse of the hatred burning deep within her. "I would rather they burn in their own 'holy fire'."
That... got a little more honest than she had anticipated. Althea looked down, opening and closing her mouth fruitlessly as she wrestled with herself for a moment. She was supposed to have all this perfectly under control. She didn't care about any of them. She didn't care what the bunch of lunatics did. "...I... apologize. A peaceful solution might indeed be more fruitful. It is just - there is much that Etruria and her people have to answer for, and not all of that cruelty can be laid at Kraft's feet. At this point I can only wonder how much is left to save."
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Post by Drei on Jun 13, 2017 15:36:05 GMT -6
He felt partial relief that he wasn't the only one in the room(Wagon?) that seemed to not quite get over or look past the suffrage others were victim to from Etruria. However an eerie comparison came to Drei when speaking of the good men and women of Eliminism. And their particular situation. Drei clasped his fingers together quietly and hooked them, resting his chin upon them, and they upon his knees in turn as he tucked his legs inwards against his chest. "I...believe however that the innocent masses. The ones who are naturally going to simply follow the guiding hand regardless of path, could be fairly comparable to our own kind. As...much as that makes my stomach churn simply to imply. Eliminian faith is already beginning to suffer the weight of societies ire outside of Etruria. While I would love for the ruling elite of Etruria to be consumed in a tide of ravenous hounds, I would not wish to see people who do not know any other way of life treated with the same cruelty we can so easily sympathize with."
He sighed quietly. For the sake of his example he..would lightly delve into his history. If only partially. "My family traveled as a circus of dark magic users. Though as a group we attracted only those who found our magic shows filled with wonder, individually we did not receive such gracious adoration. The cruelties. Denial. Abuse. Verbally and...sparingly otherwise... as well as general social bias against us for being associated with dark magics was a terrible feeling. I would not wish that upbringing on a generation of people brought to live within the teachings of a faith they did not have control over, and believed to be right. I..guess that's why I'm so sensitive to the matter though. I loved my childhood when not cast beneath a gaze of prejudice. When beneath those horrible stares however, it was simply unpleasant. "
Drei sighed, before gazing upwards after a moment. "Is it too much to ask that decent human-beings lead society? I suppose so."
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Post by Althea on Jun 13, 2017 16:28:41 GMT -6
Althea watched and listened silently as Drei voiced his disagreement, certainly not going to interrupt him in the wake of his more openly emotional reaction. Whether or not he intended it, there was body langage in how he held himself and how he spoke that suggested it was a personal subject even before he delved into the facts thereof. They had both danced around their respective histories but his explanation of a small degree of his, in keeping with what he had hinted at previously, did help make his position more understandable in terms of cause-effect.
The problem was that HERS gave her an entirely... different perspective, and as time passed she realized more and more that she was not nearly as accepting of it as she had convinced herself she was. Althea hesitated for a few moments as Drei wound down, placing her fingers on her cheek for a moment as she sometimes did to give herself something to do while thinking, as if it would somehow magically focus the thoughts in her... face... yeah she decided not to think too hard about that. But there was something else to think about. "...I'm sorry, Drei, but I don't think I can forgive them that easily. I've seen what the common people of Etruria can do when swayed by Eliminism's siren song. The atrocities that farmers and bakers unleash in the name of the Saint. I..." She swallowed, not really used to being honest, and almost as uncomfortable with what she was saying as the truth of it as it came from parts of her she had spent years trying to pretend didn't exist. "-I don't think I can believe in their innocence anymore."
So what, then? Did she think that literally everyone in Etruria should be burned alive? Obviously not. Genocide of that level would dwarf even Kraft's own, and even she could see that there were still good people in Elimine. But her trust in them had died. And she had no idea what to do from there. "...I don't know. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps liberation will free Etrurian to become... good people once more." She WANTED to believe. She didn't want to hate an entire country. That was the same kind of bigoted, closed-minded thinking that said all dark magic users were evil, all Sacaens were filthy savages, all Bernese were war-mongering morons, all Lausers were greedy and corrupt, all Ilians were heartless killing machines driven by gold rather than nationalism or pride. The exact kind of warped understanding that led to so many problems in Elibe. But she was forced to admit that she wasn't much better of a person now.
The dark mage shook her head, sighing, dispirited at the train of thought that had consumed her. Her head felt like it was full of mud. "Perhaps I should sleep for a time. Clearer thought may come after rest from our earlier exertions."
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