Hal
Soldier
Wings of Courage
I've got 99 problems and Elesia caused every one.
Posts: 215
Bern Fame: 1
Lycia Fame: 1
Affinity: Light
Profile: Hal Kailas
OoC Alias: Kenshin
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Post by Hal on Nov 5, 2009 19:55:04 GMT -6
Richter gets what I mean. Warcraft plays pretty much like Warcraft III does, when you have only control of a single hero(such as in Defense of the Ancients). Only with more skills and room for items. It still requires little skill from the player(knowledge is another matter, though. Know nothing, and you'll still be owned). Ricther seems to get what I'm talking about. A game in which skill is THE deciding factor in most fights, making grinding and equipment have little value(sure, they help. But they alone mean nothing). Go look at videos of Ys: The Oath in Felghana. Any boss battle would do. You can beat that game at level one(or should be able to, if you were able to limit your level and experience gains). All it requires is good skills(again, planning is another thing altogether. You can win Final Fantasy IX at level 1 with a single character, but it takes many days of grinding skills so that they do maximum damage, and has little to do with your actual skill). And I never bashed WoW or Mount & Blade. All I said is that the more dynamic a game is, the better. At least when it comes to MMO games. Games like WoW do this crazy thing called balance. During BC on wow a level 19 could stomp the living crap out of a lvl 70. Now that 19 wouldn't last 3 seconds against a lvl 70.
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Post by Gabriel on Nov 6, 2009 7:48:11 GMT -6
"Balance" is not about time spent in the game, but about the skill of the player. A game is balanced so long as players of the same skill and with the same stuff(though with different characters) have about equal chances of winning.
What we are talking about is a system that hands out balanced characters, yet, due to the system whether one wins or doesn't depends mostly on how good the player is. Think of a fighting game. Now picture that fighting game with actually perfectly balanced characters. Now pit a random guy versus a skilled player. Even if the characters are balanced, and the skilled player is given a handicap of 30% health, the skilled player will run the floor with the random guy.
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Hiro
Rogue
I love stealing, I love taking things.
Posts: 216
Profession: Professional ladies man
OoC Alias: Hal
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Post by Hiro on Nov 6, 2009 15:19:47 GMT -6
You completely missed my WHOLE point. We're talking about a RPG here, 51 levels is a hugh difference in level and the fact they still could stomp mud holes in them is saying something. Here's what determines skill on MMORPGs, adapting to each class and beating them. So you're saying in Street Fighter IV Ryu has a chance to beat Ken? They've got the same exact move set and all.
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Post by Gabriel on Nov 7, 2009 16:52:04 GMT -6
My point is, what I seek is a MMORPG that actually demands a gamer to have some sort of skill. And then rewards you for it. If "skill" implies only getting a "good skill and points build", then that's not skill. You can get that by reading some FAQ or the like. That, as well as ways to counter X class or similar.
What I seek is something that actually rewards you for what YOU do. Something more action based. As I said, GunZ was close. But it still has many glitches and problems(not to mention hackers. "Oh, look, 4 rockets are going your way. At the same time! From the same person! While he is shooting you with TWO machine guns!").
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Wein Lowell
Sniper
The Noble Arrow
If you're a glory hound, then I'm king of the glory hounds
Posts: 268
Lycia Fame: 2
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Post by Wein Lowell on Nov 7, 2009 17:31:37 GMT -6
I want an MMO that's like a fighting game, only massively multi-player and online.
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Yaen
Swordmaster
Prince of Blades Mad Swordsman
Now let's play the Song of Swords.
Posts: 305
Sacae Fame: 2
Bern Fame: 3
Lycia Fame: 1
Profession: Vagabond
Affinity: Thunder
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Post by Yaen on Nov 7, 2009 17:57:23 GMT -6
Google Illarion and thank me later.
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Wein Lowell
Sniper
The Noble Arrow
If you're a glory hound, then I'm king of the glory hounds
Posts: 268
Lycia Fame: 2
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Post by Wein Lowell on Nov 7, 2009 18:06:18 GMT -6
Eh, not what I had in mind.
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Hiro
Rogue
I love stealing, I love taking things.
Posts: 216
Profession: Professional ladies man
OoC Alias: Hal
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Post by Hiro on Nov 8, 2009 2:27:06 GMT -6
My point is, what I seek is a MMORPG that actually demands a gamer to have some sort of skill. And then rewards you for it. If "skill" implies only getting a "good skill and points build", then that's not skill. You can get that by reading some FAQ or the like. That, as well as ways to counter X class or similar. What I seek is something that actually rewards you for what YOU do. Something more action based. As I said, GunZ was close. But it still has many glitches and problems(not to mention hackers. "Oh, look, 4 rockets are going your way. At the same time! From the same person! While he is shooting you with TWO machine guns!"). Congrats on fail yet again. Arcane mages beats hunters. BM stands a chance against them but still loses. I dueled an arcane mage, which is a pvp build, as a pve survival. They had epic PvP gear and I had quest PvE gear and I stomped him 4 times in a row. He started the duel the right way but I was just the better player. I was in the world PvP zone in my survival raid spec, I got the jump on a rogue by throwing a hunters mark then wyvrn sting putting him asleep. His next move after trinket out of it(getting him out of the sleep instantly) and shadow stepped behind me. As he was using his trinket I set a freezing trap to freeze him in place. He landed on my trap and I ran back then unloaded on him killing him before he could touch me. Rogues are built for PvP, yet he lost to a PvE raid spec. Hunter PvP spec was mainly Survival, Rogues ate us alive unless we were Beast Mastery, then they didn't stand a chance against us. Guess what, you can't change what spec you are during Arena or after the start of a battle ground. You can't change in the middle of combat either. With all my pvp encounters and me beating classes that have advantages it take zero skill what so ever. Is that what you're trying to tell me?
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Alphonse
Priest
[M:0]
A flask? Without alcohol?! Blasphemy!
Posts: 73
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Post by Alphonse on Nov 8, 2009 11:29:14 GMT -6
My point is, what I seek is a MMORPG that actually demands a gamer to have some sort of skill. And then rewards you for it. If "skill" implies only getting a "good skill and points build", then that's not skill. You can get that by reading some FAQ or the like. That, as well as ways to counter X class or similar. What I seek is something that actually rewards you for what YOU do. Something more action based. As I said, GunZ was close. But it still has many glitches and problems(not to mention hackers. "Oh, look, 4 rockets are going your way. At the same time! From the same person! While he is shooting you with TWO machine guns!"). Congrats on fail yet again. Arcane mages beats hunters. BM stands a chance against them but still loses. I dueled an arcane mage, which is a pvp build, as a pve survival. They had epic PvP gear and I had quest PvE gear and I stomped him 4 times in a row. He started the duel the right way but I was just the better player. I was in the world PvP zone in my survival raid spec, I got the jump on a rogue by throwing a hunters mark then wyvrn sting putting him asleep. His next move after trinket out of it(getting him out of the sleep instantly) and shadow stepped behind me. As he was using his trinket I set a freezing trap to freeze him in place. He landed on my trap and I ran back then unloaded on him killing him before he could touch me. Rogues are built for PvP, yet he lost to a PvE raid spec. Hunter PvP spec was mainly Survival, Rogues ate us alive unless we were Beast Mastery, then they didn't stand a chance against us. Guess what, you can't change what spec you are during Arena or after the start of a battle ground. You can't change in the middle of combat either. With all my pvp encounters and me beating classes that have advantages it take zero skill what so ever. Is that what you're trying to tell me? Yes, WoW does take skill to play, but I think what Gabriel is trying to say is he wants a game thats more dependent on how skilled you are, rather than what talent build you have or what armor you have (though those would still be factors of course). I'm neutral on the conflict; the only thing I really care about is if its compatible with Macs.
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Hiro
Rogue
I love stealing, I love taking things.
Posts: 216
Profession: Professional ladies man
OoC Alias: Hal
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Post by Hiro on Nov 8, 2009 11:47:25 GMT -6
Yes it take more skill to win a fight where you're fighting somebody who's character should win do to class then everything being even just different skill level. If everything was "balanced" by both players having the same resources it defeats the purpose of it being competitive. Fighting games and pvp in MMO test your ablity to adapt to each situation. Here's something to test how boring that could be, get all your friends together and find one character everybody can play on a game such as brawl then hold a tournament. It loses it's fun factor.
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Post by Gabriel on Nov 8, 2009 14:52:25 GMT -6
Not really. It pushes players to do what they don't do normally. Play carefully, try out new things, and those who actually use say characters are now forced to literally fight themselves(although some unskilled themselves, since the character is your main, but not the others').
I believe the randomness of items add to the fun. Seriously. "Oh, but they are so cheap! They can turn a match in seconds! It takes no skill to use them!". Ha, I say. It pushes one's skill to the limit when the enemy gets a star, followed by a hammer. That randomness forces you to play differently. Forces you to actually adapt to any situation. Sure, the enemy just got Kyogre out of a pokeball. So what? Find a way to get around that attack. It IS possible. This is the kind of skill I'm taking about. Not the Melee gayness of "no items, final destination, see how many combos you can pull before the other gets out of attack-stun". As long as you can do that, you win. But seriously, where's the fun in that?
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Post by Richter Abend on Nov 8, 2009 15:51:45 GMT -6
Everything doesn't have to be exactly the same to be balanced.
I'm talking a game where a mage has the same chance beating a swordsman as a swordsman has beating a mage. They have different play styles and thus different tactics and strategies, but there's an equal chance of winning as long as the players are equally skilled. If one player is much better at how a mage fights than the other is how a swordsman fights, mage is going to win. Now I don't mean if the mage knows the superior build, I mean if the mage actually knows how to perform better.
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Hal
Soldier
Wings of Courage
I've got 99 problems and Elesia caused every one.
Posts: 215
Bern Fame: 1
Lycia Fame: 1
Affinity: Light
Profile: Hal Kailas
OoC Alias: Kenshin
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Post by Hal on Nov 9, 2009 2:32:03 GMT -6
Not really. It pushes players to do what they don't do normally. Play carefully, try out new things, and those who actually use say characters are now forced to literally fight themselves(although some unskilled themselves, since the character is your main, but not the others'). I believe the randomness of items add to the fun. Seriously. "Oh, but they are so cheap! They can turn a match in seconds! It takes no skill to use them!". Ha, I say. It pushes one's skill to the limit when the enemy gets a star, followed by a hammer. That randomness forces you to play differently. Forces you to actually adapt to any situation. Sure, the enemy just got Kyogre out of a pokeball. So what? Find a way to get around that attack. It IS possible. This is the kind of skill I'm taking about. Not the Melee gayness of "no items, final destination, see how many combos you can pull before the other gets out of attack-stun". As long as you can do that, you win. But seriously, where's the fun in that? Really? You are more ignorant at smash brothers then you know. Most of the Final Smash build up damage and kill you, Marth's a OHKO regardless. I was playing as Marth, grabbed the smash ball and killed the other person, waited for invincibility from coming back to wear off, got in his face and he's dead. Where was the skill there? There wasn't any, now let's add in a match where you're Link and there's projectile item. If you're trying to recover and they've got an item just kill yourself. He never had a good recovery then in Brawl they nerfed his hookshot recovery and made his UP more like SSB. Where's the skill of moving with the gun and staying in range and killing them? Or even the spicy curry, zero chance of getting back. Oh don't get me started on how you can die at 80% from weak attacks where in Melee you could make it back. Brawl is so unbalanced. IMO you say items proves if you're good or not because you're not as good as you claim to be. Sure I can spam items and win, but without them I'm trash. Where's the skill there? Using over powered items do not show skill. Watching a Mario jump off the edge, cape Ike, jump and Up B to make it back takes more skill then tossing an item. Seeing a Jigglypuff time a rest just right and kill somebody is harder to do then grabbing a Star, hit the other person then grab a hammer.
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Post by Gabriel on Nov 9, 2009 9:12:01 GMT -6
You DO know that all Final Smash attacks can be dodged, right? Marth's Critical Hit is not a OHKO if you have a wall to tech at. Granted, the timing really has to be perfect, but it's doable. Also, Marth's Critical Hit can be seen from a mile away, and can even be dodged at point blank range.
Also, items are good in moderation. Playing with items in normal or high is just plain unfair. We also have a small amount of "unspoken rules" with our friends. Spamming items is just not allowed. And Curry is ALWAYS off. Annoying as hell, and downright cheap to the point in which you may simply go and suicide. Several times. If, by chance, someone spams items on a 3 or 4 player match, then we all agree to stomp on the spammer. We also despise edge hogging, to the point in which if a player does it, we again show no mercy.
Also, the skill has to come from both the player WITH the item and the player WITHOUT it. Sure, the other can get a star or a hammer. Doesn't mean that you will die. Yes, you are at a clear disadvantage, but then again, if all it takes for someone to kill you is a hammer, then you're doing it wrong.
What is the fun in having 15 matches of, say, Ganondorf versus Mario? If player A is more skilled than Player B, 9/10 times player A will win. Items add some balance, by forcing both players to adapt to all situations. Melee with no items(as is normally regarded as "the manly way to do it") was simply "go and combo, since there's hitstun. Once you can't combo anymore, retreat, dodge, try again". Brawl with no items is more of the same, except that you die on lower percentages and that the opponent HAS a chance to escape a combo.
Otherwise, it's Pokemon all over again. "Oh, hey, it's only the 157th time I see a Curselax today!". Same tactics. Always. Items force you to vary, even against the same opponent, multiple times.
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Hiro
Rogue
I love stealing, I love taking things.
Posts: 216
Profession: Professional ladies man
OoC Alias: Hal
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Post by Hiro on Nov 9, 2009 9:33:50 GMT -6
You try avoiding Wolf's tank? It's better then Foxes and Falcos tanks. You're best chance of avoiding is playing a big stage. Have you played a sonic player who knows how to use the final smash, not one of them fly around the whole stage just to hit you but one that stay on you the whole time. You can't sidestep all of the hits. I've tried using side steps, rolls, AND wolf's invisible frames and still couldn't stay away from it.
If player A is that much better then player B, that just makes the chances of player B winning lower. Maybe your friends are dumb enough to use the final smash the second they get it but that's not the point of it. You keep them dodging and catch them after they go to side step it. Mat, stop talking you just proved that you're nothing but a hypocrit. You say WoW is bad because Class A beat Class B and Class C beats both Class A and B. The point of that is to prove how good you are at fighting each class, which make the fights situational, yet you say "good" players use items on SSB because it forces people to adapt to all situations? Where the hell is the logic there.
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