Wyatt
Hero
The Volcano
How can someone win if winning means that someone loses?
Posts: 463
Etruria Fame: 2
Sacae Fame: -1
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 15:37:38 GMT -6
Post by Wyatt on Mar 4, 2012 15:37:38 GMT -6
The point that Nayru and I are making (At least I speak for myself, not her. But I can guess.) is that this will only improve the accessibility to the game -> More Money.
Those who want to play it with Unit death will do so. Those who got turned off to the series because of the unforgiving nature will play it with Unit Death off, but at least they will still buy and play the game. Maybe they will get better at it and eventually play it with Unit Death on, who knows.
Did Lyn's mode in FE7 ruin the game? If someone died there they weren't dead for good, you could still use them in the second game. This idea is taking that to the logical conclusion.
My real issue is that I feel some people are deciding what is fun for other people. If you have fun by challenging yourself, go for it. If you don't want that level of hair pulling challenge, but still enjoy the games style, well then there is a option for you.
At the end of the day someone is still going to be making a topic about how their 20/20 whatever character soloed the Post Game content. I really don't see how it changes anything.
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Wyatt
Hero
The Volcano
How can someone win if winning means that someone loses?
Posts: 463
Etruria Fame: 2
Sacae Fame: -1
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 15:40:40 GMT -6
Post by Wyatt on Mar 4, 2012 15:40:40 GMT -6
I didn't get into Shadow Dragon to see the whole unit class changing option, it couldn't get past how damn ugly the art style was. And agreed. Actually, what really got to me was how...bland everyone was. I mean I know in that time it was 'Throw as many characters as possible' but the personalized cast is what people LOVE about the current FE's. Why would you go back to a world before that?
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:02:20 GMT -6
Post by Nayru Al-Saiduq on Mar 4, 2012 16:02:20 GMT -6
The point that Nayru and I are making (At least I speak for myself, not her. But I can guess.) is that this will only improve the accessibility to the game -> More Money. Those who want to play it with Unit death will do so. Those who got turned off to the series because of the unforgiving nature will play it with Unit Death off, but at least they will still buy and play the game. Maybe they will get better at it and eventually play it with Unit Death on, who knows. Did Lyn's mode in FE7 ruin the game? If someone died there they weren't dead for good, you could still use them in the second game. This idea is taking that to the logical conclusion. My real issue is that I feel some people are deciding what is fun for other people. If you have fun by challenging yourself, go for it. If you don't want that level of hair pulling challenge, but still enjoy the games style, well then there is a option for you. At the end of the day someone is still going to be making a topic about how their 20/20 whatever character soloed the Post Game content. I really don't see how it changes anything. Don't fret about speaking for me there - you hit it spot-on. I REALLY don't want to get into the ME3/Bioware crapstorms that have been ongoing, but I do feel that choice is really good, both from a profit perspective and for people who do like the game's characters/story/gameplay but don't want to deal with permadeath/super hard stuff/whatever. Those of us who DO like hard mode can still do that, and the people who don't... don't have to, and now they can enjoy the game too.
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Hal
Soldier
Wings of Courage
I've got 99 problems and Elesia caused every one.
Posts: 215
Bern Fame: 1
Lycia Fame: 1
Affinity: Light
Profile: Hal Kailas
OoC Alias: Kenshin
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:10:06 GMT -6
Post by Hal on Mar 4, 2012 16:10:06 GMT -6
The point that Nayru and I are making (At least I speak for myself, not her. But I can guess.) is that this will only improve the accessibility to the game -> More Money. Those who want to play it with Unit death will do so. Those who got turned off to the series because of the unforgiving nature will play it with Unit Death off, but at least they will still buy and play the game. Maybe they will get better at it and eventually play it with Unit Death on, who knows. If you've played an MMO you know this feeling all too well. You find content that proves somewhat challenging and fun, somebody who doesn't enjoy the game as much as you shows up and cries it's too hard and the company whips out 156 nerf bats and goes to town. I can't speak for you but when something starts to get too easy I find it boring. Just having the option there is like them showing us the nerf bat.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:12:31 GMT -6
Post by Nayru Al-Saiduq on Mar 4, 2012 16:12:31 GMT -6
That's an incorrect analogy - it would be more accurate to envision that MMO keeping the difficulty, but adding an easier mode that can be selected. There being an optional no-permadeath is much different than the top of the difficulty curve being dropped down for everyone. If you play with permadeath on, it's still the same game as you're used to.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:13:01 GMT -6
Post by Richter Abend on Mar 4, 2012 16:13:01 GMT -6
The point that Nayru and I are making (At least I speak for myself, not her. But I can guess.) is that this will only improve the accessibility to the game -> More Money. Those who want to play it with Unit death will do so. Those who got turned off to the series because of the unforgiving nature will play it with Unit Death off, but at least they will still buy and play the game. Maybe they will get better at it and eventually play it with Unit Death on, who knows. Did Lyn's mode in FE7 ruin the game? If someone died there they weren't dead for good, you could still use them in the second game. This idea is taking that to the logical conclusion. My real issue is that I feel some people are deciding what is fun for other people. If you have fun by challenging yourself, go for it. If you don't want that level of hair pulling challenge, but still enjoy the games style, well then there is a option for you. At the end of the day someone is still going to be making a topic about how their 20/20 whatever character soloed the Post Game content. I really don't see how it changes anything. I'd like to say, again, that I'm not trying to say what's fun or not, for me or anyone else. If someone thinks its more fun to play with permadeath off, fine, no skin off my bones, but that doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem has been about resetting a numerous times or else permanently losing your characters, for as long as the series has existed. Accessibility or no, that IS part of the Fire Emblem experience, and fun or not, playing with it off does mean you're missing out on something that Fire Emblem fans have been able to relate on up until this game. "Oh man, remember that level where you keep losing ****** when ****** comes out of nowhere?" "No, I have permadeath off" "Oh. Well..." *turns around* "Hey, remember when..."
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:18:06 GMT -6
Post by Nayru Al-Saiduq on Mar 4, 2012 16:18:06 GMT -6
If someone thinks its more fun to play with permadeath off, fine, no skin off my bones, but that doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem has been about resetting a numerous times or else permanently losing your characters, for as long as the series has existed. Is it really? To me, Fire Emblem has always been about the interpersonal relationships and character development attached to them, tight tactical gameplay, and... I hesitate to bring up their generally-somewhat-mediocre stories, but at least that bit is consistently decent. Individual mechanics have changed throughout the series, some for the better, some for the worse. Past games have had a way to revive characters from permadeath, albeit limited to... 1-3? uses per game. Did that ruin the game in itself? Bad mechanics make way for new ones. Is permadeath a bad mechanic? I dunno. I don't think any of us can objectively factually state - yes it is, or no it isn't. I do think that all this hullaboo is a little silly when being able to buck permadeath was a feature in past games; it's not like the concept is new to FE.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:28:56 GMT -6
Post by Richter Abend on Mar 4, 2012 16:28:56 GMT -6
If someone thinks its more fun to play with permadeath off, fine, no skin off my bones, but that doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem has been about resetting a numerous times or else permanently losing your characters, for as long as the series has existed. Is it really? To me, Fire Emblem has always been about the interpersonal relationships and character development attached to them, tight tactical gameplay, and... I hesitate to bring up their generally-somewhat-mediocre stories, but at least that bit is consistently decent. Individual mechanics have changed throughout the series, some for the better, some for the worse. Past games have had a way to revive characters from permadeath, albeit limited to... 1-3? uses per game. Did that ruin the game in itself? Bad mechanics make way for new ones. Is permadeath a bad mechanic? I dunno. I don't think any of us can objectively factually state - yes it is, or no it isn't. I do think that all this hullaboo is a little silly when being able to buck permadeath was a feature in past games; it's not like the concept is new to FE. That's cherry picking. To have those interpersonal relationships, one had to keep their characters alive through the stress that the tight tactical gameplay many times provided. Additionally, comparing a couple of story related revives to having everyone revive at the end of a mission is probably not the best comparison. The game, as a whole, is all of the parts, not just a few that people particularly like or don't like. It's like having a toggle ammo function in a Resident Evil game. Sure, the main mechanic of aiming and shooting is still there, but without the necessity of conserving ammo (even in the newer ones), fun or no, it's hardly the same experience.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:30:36 GMT -6
Post by Nayru Al-Saiduq on Mar 4, 2012 16:30:36 GMT -6
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Hal
Soldier
Wings of Courage
I've got 99 problems and Elesia caused every one.
Posts: 215
Bern Fame: 1
Lycia Fame: 1
Affinity: Light
Profile: Hal Kailas
OoC Alias: Kenshin
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:30:46 GMT -6
Post by Hal on Mar 4, 2012 16:30:46 GMT -6
If someone thinks its more fun to play with permadeath off, fine, no skin off my bones, but that doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem has been about resetting a numerous times or else permanently losing your characters, for as long as the series has existed. Is it really? To me, Fire Emblem has always been about the interpersonal relationships and character development attached to them, tight tactical gameplay, and... I hesitate to bring up their generally-somewhat-mediocre stories, but at least that bit is consistently decent. Before you had to work to keep your characters, with permadeath they'll just return next chapter. With that around it kinda ruins half the fun of building two character's relationship. Also you missed the part in my last post saying the option being there is like them showing us the nerf bat. Showing it to us is like that "tough" kid we all grew up that would wave it around saying "I'm not afraid to use it either".
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:32:04 GMT -6
Post by Richter Abend on Mar 4, 2012 16:32:04 GMT -6
Again, not equivalent to having a party of 8 revived after every mission.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:38:00 GMT -6
Post by Nayru Al-Saiduq on Mar 4, 2012 16:38:00 GMT -6
Again, not equivalent to having a party of 8 revived after every mission. ...It bothers me that for some reason only one of the links actually shows up as a link when you quoted it. Both URLs are structured the same, same site.... weird. Anyways I was just pointing out that resurrection has been a feature of the game in the past, NOT just for plot critical characters. I didn't -say- it was exactly the same as this implementation - even each of those staves worked very differently, and if I'm reading it right one of them WAS infinite uses... if you had the gold to repair it every time.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:47:33 GMT -6
Post by Richter Abend on Mar 4, 2012 16:47:33 GMT -6
Again, not equivalent to having a party of 8 revived after every mission. ...It bothers me that for some reason only one of the links actually shows up as a link when you quoted it. Both URLs are structured the same, same site.... weird. Anyways I was just pointing out that resurrection has been a feature of the game in the past, NOT just for plot critical characters. I didn't -say- it was exactly the same as this implementation - even each of those staves worked very differently, and if I'm reading it right one of them WAS infinite uses... if you had the gold to repair it every time. Alright, it's not just for plot critical characters, but just because they both revive dead characters doesn't make it the same game mechanic at all, so I'm not sure why its being brought up. When it essentially costs a crap load of money to revive someone, reviving someone becomes a lot less attractive. With a 30,000 revive past a certain point in the game, the concepts of sacrifice, decoy, guarding, character walling, and suicide attack still mean essentially the same thing as they would with none. But when everyone revives at the end of the mission, all of those terms begin to mean very little.
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Wyatt
Hero
The Volcano
How can someone win if winning means that someone loses?
Posts: 463
Etruria Fame: 2
Sacae Fame: -1
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 16:58:05 GMT -6
Post by Wyatt on Mar 4, 2012 16:58:05 GMT -6
You are going to play with Character death on, right?
Then the game doesn't change for you at all.
At the end of the day, I really don't see the problem here. It's like getting upset because Cheat Codes are in a game. You don't have to use them, you can play the game the way it was intended.
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FE3DS
Mar 4, 2012 17:05:16 GMT -6
Post by Richter Abend on Mar 4, 2012 17:05:16 GMT -6
Hush, Wyatt, I'm discussing conceptuals, not your silly thing called practical logic.
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