We're Gonna Need a Bigger Boot... [Perun/Finished]

[Donovan]

It had been a strange week. They’d all been on the road so long together that the silver tongued mercenary couldn’t help but feel like he was with his troupe again. Sure Duma was over dramatic and perpetually serious and Remus was unable to see an ounce of corruption and darkness in the world, but Owain and Amelia were both terrors and endlessly entertaining. Of course Donovan now felt like a fool for thinking Remus would be fine finding his own way back into the previous town which was only a 2 hour walk from where he’d left the party. And when the priest hadn’t returned the next day, they knew something must have been amiss. When they saw no signs of violence or kidnapping along the road back to the town, Don held hope that the priest had simple gotten turned around and hopelessly lost, rather than finding himself a brutal, unpoetic ending.

While the mercenary had grown up traveling the roads both obvious and secret with his troupe, the preacher hadn’t done much of any traveling through Lycia. And Laus had impressive forests that could make travel within them extremely dangerous if you found yourself on one of the older paths into the heart of the wood.

Thus the Giant and the Liar found themselves seeking out a foreign priest in a vast wilderness, hoping beyond hope that he only went the wrong direction. Don felt confident enough in his knowledge of Lycian roads and Perun’s skill as a tracker that they would be able to find their way back to the others, but he was weary about leaving the kids alone with Duma, Lillisette, and Flynn. They seemed to attract all sorts of preternaturally powerful attention.

Don figured that it was possible Remus found himself traveling on one of the ancient roads, marked by old, faded statues and nearly reclaimed by the wood. So he and Perun trucked along, looking for signs of life as they did. But he feared that there were - well - absolutely zero signs of life. For all of his knowledge and all of Perun’s experience, they were hopelessly and utterly lost in a part of the forest untouched by human hands for a span of time neither of the men could truly imagine.

Hence Donovan couldn’t help but stop dead in his tracks when the saw the fortress before them. He knew of no military bases, towns, or temples that resided in this part of Laus, what was the point of defending such a wild place? Yet here stood a fortress. Well, more of a ruin. The ancient walls crumbled and were wrought with ivy. And while it certainly didn’t seem like a place that had any beginnings of life left within it, a set of walls, weak with age or no, seemed like as good a place than any to set up camp for the night.

[Perun]

The slow chill of the dawning winter hung in the air. The dead ground below the feet of the Giant gave way beneath his thick soled boots, the mud splitting and spreading beneath his massive weight. The orange haired man of the clan of Volsungg had not tracked in some times, and he could feel the rust on his bones each time he swung his arms or lifted his legs. Though there wasn't a great surplus to of signs to use around here.

The road the Liar traveled with his Giant in tow was ancient. A meek wind wound its way through dead trees, that could have fallen if the enormous weight of Perun had gone against it. There was no greenery to have been snapped beneath the priests careless feet, however, there was the slightest sign in the mud that there had been some sort of movement through the area. They would be met with something if they followed their path. Hopefully it would be the priest and they'd be able to get out of this decaying forest that no man had seen in some time.

Donovan seemed confident they'd find him, so Perun wouldn't voice any concern. However he felt a degree of discomfort through the wood. He was not used to being around so much death, it was an unnatural look. Many of the massive pines in his home valley were older than his father and his father's father. On days like this he hated the outside world and its frail little trees even more than usual. "Duno-ven, are you having been being travelling here before?"

[Donovan]

As the pair approached the ancient ruins, Perun’s heavily accented voice rung out. Though the Giant spoke softly, it tore through the serenity of the forest like a crossbow through cloth. ”Duno-ven, are you having been being travelling here before?” Don shook his head. “I’ve been through Laus plenty, but I don’t think anyone’s been in this part of the forest for ages. These woods are supposed to be cursed according to the locals.” Of course, Don knew the ridiculous nature of such small town superstition. “Young men and eager explorers go lost in these woods every once in a great while, but to no one’s real surprise. They’re huge. But I don’t know when someone has actually ended up this far into these woods. I’ve never heard of anyone ever finding any ruins of this size around here. Maybe we’ll find Remus inside, him thinking that someone will think to check here.”

The ruins were large, certainly, but not so big as a true castle. They appeared to have at one point been a sizable fortress. With a barracks for soldiers, stables and a small throne room being immediately visible as the wood that had once been doors had long ago rotted away. A watchtower that was now dwarfed by the nearby trees was half crumbled. Don couldn’t fathom how old the trees must have been to now be taller than a fortress’s main force of defense, and less so could he imagine for how long the fortress must have been abandoned.

A crunch broke through the eerie silence and Don couldn’t help but jump just a little. He’d stepped on a twig and his contemplation suddenly and decisively ended. He stopped. He couldn’t shake the feeling that had persisted him from the moment they entered safety of the stone walls. “Is it just me or does this place feel… Tense? ” He looked down and saw what he had broken in his stride, and was frankly surprised he hadn’t broken more along the way.

The courtyard was littered with skeletons, their flesh long, long rotted away.

[Perun]

"Yeblat, Perun would not be being surprised if Ree-moose was lost and finding himself in other place or being dead." As he spoke, Perun felt a tightness grip his chest. Sentimental as the giant was capable of being, the thought of the priests untimely demise in the rickety wood wasn't what grabbed him, rather it was the sight of the ruins that only added an edge to the taught feeling of the air. The bones of long men littered the ground, and they filled Perun with a sense he couldn't explain simply, something between ambivalence and anger. Stories had reached the pair of the walking corpses and bones that ravaged the central nation of the little people. They sounded close to being like the draugr of his people's stories. Perun wasn't able to believe everything he heard, but if he had to dig his axe in the skull of some skeletal warrior, he would let it dig deep.

The Giant's head snapped when Donovan snapped a twig under foot, and as his head and shoulders spun, his hand shot to his axe hanging at his waist. Seeing nothing behind his young friend he turned his gaze back to the ruins that swallowed them. The sound of the breaking nature rung across the ancient walls, and hit the tracker's ears. He did not remove his thick fingers from the top of his axe, preferring to keep them close. Donovan asked him if he felt tense. Perun snorted, his mustache flaring as he exhaled through his nose. "Perun iz was worrying that was be being only him. Iz almost as tense as it was being when we were in that broth-broth... lady house wiv knight men in Bern."

The northern thunder walker wrapped his fingers around the haft of his axe below the loop on his belt. "Less dead bodies were being around then."

[Donovan]

Perun was right of course. There wasn’t a chance Remus was in a place like this. Anyone who saw this many bodies would recognize that no one came by here regularly. There wouldn’t be so many skeletons if that was the case. The crumbling stone, overrun with ivy, was once a grand castle and the scene of what looked like a rather large battle. Arrows and swords that had long since rusted away littered the ground.

“You know, I was trying to place it. That’s what this reminds me of.” Don chuckled, “That’s definitely not a story Remus would allow us to tell Amelia and Owain.” The Silver Tongue explored the ruins. He’d never seen the aftermath of a battle remain so untouched. But then again, he wasn’t exactly experienced with full scale war. “Perun? Doesn’t it strike you as odd that there are still so many skeletons here? I would have thought that whoever won the battle would have taken the castle for themselves. Starting with clearing out the bodies.”

Walked over to a staircase that was built into the side of the wall. There was a single corpse at the top of the stairs, in what was once quite elegant armor clutching a sword. It’s chest plate was torn open and the body was littered with arrows lodged in the steel meant to keep the fallen hero alive. A dozen skeletons littered the ground beneath and around the stairs, as if the hero had been killing them from a distance. Don bent and examined one of the skeletons, then another, many seemed to be missing any signs of armor. “What happened here?”

Don stopped dead in his tracks. “Do you smell that?” It had taken a while, but the scent had found them eventually. Something in this castle had died recently.

[Perun]

As the pair advanced, the monstrous Ilian stopped in his tracks, while the slimmer Silver Tongue kept walking. The eagle eyes of the orange haired man scanned the walls of the ruins as thoroughly as the younger man inspected the fallen bones. He'd been stopped, dead to rights by the smell. The stench of death filled his massive nostrils and alerted him to something, something fowl. Something new. His head spun at the smell, it was like the putrid carcass of some animal so diseased the carrion would not even pick its flesh from bone. It dug into the massive man, and he could not shake the stench from his mouth and nose.

Eventually, his blue eyes followed his friend's path, and he saw it, a Skeleton gripping a sword, in arrow pelted armor. Scattered across the ground was a mass of dead warriors, themselves in sundered armor. It was an odd sight, and Donovan was right, this wasn't how a battlefield, even an ancient one should look. Rather, the castle should be plain, abandoned, not filled with the bodies of those that fell defending and attacking it.

"No Duno-ven, bettle field should not be full of bodies. Iz bad chief that leaves men on ground dead." Perun looked at the sword. "Bettle field should not be fulled of weapons." With that Perun swiftly started climbing the stairs. He reached it and wrapped his thick fingers about the hilt. Suddenly his hand flew off the hilt as if pushed back by a massive gale force wind. The force managed to push Perun back, the massive warrior having to juggle his feet below him to keep from falling and crashing down the steps, and he still went down to the third to top step. When he looked back, the sword was... vibrating. It spun out of the skeletal hand that held it, and seemed to sail on the air for a few moments before crashing to the ground a few feet behind Donovan.

"Yeblat." As the sword had flown, there had come a rustling noise, but Perun had considered it to be simply the noise of the blade and the shifting bones. He went to chase after the sword, that had shocked him and made him look the fool, only slightly registering the smell shifting. Something moved in the deep.

[Donovan]

Donovan whipped around when he heard Perun starting to fall. The giant had climbed up the stairs toward the skeleton and most likely a tone had loosed under his weight. “You alright, Perun?” He called across the courtyard. Suddenly, a sword flew from the top of the stairs and crashed to the ground behind Don. “What the damn hell was that? Perun did you see that?” Looking down at the sword, it held a design he’d never seen before. The blade was rounded on either side, it looked almost leaf like. Intricate and elegant carvings were etched into the blade which was neither rusted or dulled, despite its exposure to the elements. And it’s handle, a horn so deep a green that it looked nearly ebony, seemed to call his hand toward the weapon.

A strange rustling sound made Donovan turn to his left, where an enormous spiderwebs spanned one of the walls. They were littered with bodies. Though not skeletons like on the floor, and not all - not most - were human. They all seemed to have their life… drained from them. As if they had become nothing more than a husk of the deer, wolves, and bears that they once were. But they were all big. Far too big for any normal spider to have attacked. “We need to get out of here!”

As he turned to see the Giant rushing towards him and the sword, he saw a creature lurking in the shadows. It’s five eyes were red and beady. It’s pincers dripped a viscous green fluid. It launched its body, the size of a large covered wagon, at the enormous man. “PERUN GET OUT OF THE WAY!”

[Perun]

Ooc: I'll edit the mistakes when I have the time.

As Perun continued to make his way down the stone steps his friend asked him if he was alright, Perun didn't answer. He was, predictably he felt, shaken by the fact that a sword had been seemingly flung by a skeleton, and that it had twirled in the air like a piece of parchment. Shaken enough that his answer could wait til he reached the bottom, and could break the think in his hands, fragile sword it was.

Too late did Perun hear the skittering, too late did he feel the evil in this place bared open to his very soul. His young companion almost always saw things second, but his face twisted with his eyes on the shadows of the ruins before Perun saw what was happening. Perun'a eyes were that of a tracker, both predator and prey were seen first by him. Donovan'a eyes were that of a pragmatist, he saw different kinds of predators and different kind of prey, and would have to point them out to Perun. At the moment however, Perun only slowly began to register the present threat.

The giant was two thirds of the way down the steps when it emerged. It was a hideous thing, an eight legged monstrosity, thin and long. It's face was nothing but a nightmare, and Perun saw in its disgusting eyes a hunger and an instinct so alien to him that it made his stomach roll to the point he almost retched there on the steps. His heart pound in his chest with fear at the speed of a racing eagle.

He was bending his knees to speed towards Donovan when the closest thing the freakish mass had to knees seemed to bend, and the ugly monster flew up, higher than Perun had ever seen something that was not a bird reach. It was lucky it flew so high, because if it hadn't, Perrin would have likely been killed in seconds. The beast crashed on the bottom of the steps where Perun had been only moments before, with the Ilian having to leap and roll away from the hairy legs of the creature. As the giant rolled, he twisted his form to avoid breaking his bow in the case on his back.

Leaping up as quick as he could, Perun rushed to stand a feet yards away from Donovan. As he went, in one motion he let all bags except his quiver and his old elm bow fall to the ground while pulling his axe from his belt. He even let that case fall, the tube that held the massive bow of Lightning, Fail-Not. Now was not the time to see the might of a bow meant to bring down a dragon, now was the time for getting out alive. He rested his left hand above the right on the heft of his axe. Perun Volsungg of Clan Volsungg had killed spiders before.

[Donovan]

Donovan’s heart was in his throat, but Perun had just barely managed to avoid the terrifying creature that had leapt at the Giant with such force. Perun dropped all of his gear and readied his weapons, and Don followed suit, all his packs and cloaks . “That thing’s too fast for us to run, isn’t it?” He posed the question to his orange haired friend, but knew the answer. There was no chance that either of them would be able to outrun the creature in front of them. This would be a fight to the death. With the terrifying creature before them, Don almost wished that they were fighting the Ilian Reaper again. Almost.

The Silver Tongue took a breath as the creature seemed to reevaluate its situation. Perun was big, but he was faster than anyone ever gave him credit for, including, apparently, giant spiders in the middle of the wood. And now it had lost the element of surprise. “I don’t suppose you have a giant boot on you, do you? I think mine might not be big enough.” The beast leapt again, this time at Donovan. The Silver Tongue rolled away and avoided the beast’s attack. He was faster than Perun and hadn’t been caught off guard as the Warrior had. The creature’s massive size made it’s movement teleplay that much more, once you knew it existed. Still. The mercenary wasn’t looking forward to getting hit by such a massive foe.

Don thought more quickly in this moment than he had his entire life. He was quick with strategy, but fighting something so utterly foreign was another concept entirely. “If we take out it’s legs, it won’t be able to jump anymore, right?” The legs did look particularly thin and spindly - probably to make the creature jump so easily. And having gotten a better look at it, Don realized it was more the size of a bear than a Wagon. So, just a Bear sized spider. That wasn’t too bad, right?

[Perun]

The massive thing slid about, it's massive legs lifting only inches off the ground as it turned, it was ridiculously fast for its size. "Iz being faster than Winter Duno-ven." And with the speed of nature's end the monster lurched forward again. Boots? No. Perun iz have axe." When the monster leapt again, it flew for Donovan.

Both of the Hurricane duo moved at the same time, Donovan moving to get out of the way, and Perun rushing towards his friends position. Donovan was well above the speed it would take for him to avoid the blow from the spider, and Perun was barely fast enough to do as he intended. The giant did not rush to push the Silver Tongue aside, he knew that the monstrosity would land in the spot it stared at, and Perun would meet it there not moments after its landing.

As it's legs crashed into the ground, bending at its own massive weight, the body fell soon afterward, the hair on its lower thorax brushing against the stone floor. Perun was there. He weaved between its feet on the ground, and aimed a blow from his axe into the grotesquely colored side of the monster. Raising his axe over his right shoulder, then his head, he was prepared to bring it crashing down. However, the spider turned with alarming speed, and with on then two of its legs it roughly shoved Perun away, as it skittered back from both mercenaries.

It climbed on the webbed walls of the ruins, with the same speed it had moments before on the ground. Perun collected himself, the Spider hadn't used enough strength to di much more than bruise his left arm, but it had still shaken him back from his feet. "Yes Duno-ven, the legs. as quick as he could, Perun slid his axe into his belt, then worked with both hands. He began to pedal to his left, putting distance between himself and Donovan. As he went, he pulled his bow from its case with his left hand, and two arrows from his quiver with his right. He strung the bow with no real difficulty, and nocked an arrow.

Taking aim, Perun saw the monster was likely to jump for Donovan again. The Giant gritted his teeth and pulled his string back to his cheek. The arrow flew with a whistle, and bounced off the wall inches from the head of the spider. The beast shifted just enough to look in Perun's direction, where it saw the massive giant had stopped in his tracks and was pulling his second arrow back. This time he hit, taking the spider in one of its six eyes with his black tipped arrow.

The monster flung itself into the air with startling speed after the injury, and flew straight for the northerner. He backpedaled, and threw his bow away too late. The thing landed, and its long front legs pushed the giant off his feet. Before he could roll away, three of the spindly limbs had hooked his shoulders. Perun realized that the ends of its legs were like claws, curling and rigid, sharp enough to stick through his flesh. It lifted the massive man from the ground, the few feet it could manage.

[Donovan]

The Giant had taken an eye, and in return, the monster had scooped him up with it’s disgusting limbs. It struggled to lift the enormous man, even for a beast that monstrously large, the Giant proved to be more than it could chew. Seeing that the Bael was turned away from him, Don sprung into action hacking at the joints of the creature that didn’t seem to be covered by the exoskeleton that protected the rest of it’s limbs. Even with taking the beast by surprise, Don struggled to do much damage with Flynn’s blade. He hacked at the joint and seemed to make a little progress. But as he realized that his sword simply wasn’t sharp enough, Donovan used it’s sharp point and all his weight to plunge it into the creature’s knee.

The beast let out something akin to a howl, and Don tried to tear his sword from the leg. It threw the Giant and turned to focus it’s latest nuisance, smacking Don away from it with it’s front legs. There was a sharp crack as the mercenary was punched away. The red haired mercenary’s sword had snapped. With a smash, Donovan hit one of the inner walls of the fortress before landing on the ground. He pulled himself to his knees and marveled at the hilt in his hand. “Another broken sword? Are you f***ing kidding me?” He scrambled to his feet as the creature lunged again. This time, Don barely escaped it’s attack and he felt one of it’s many legs slash at his back, nearly destroying his leather armor. He threw himself into a sprint, looking for a new blade as he tried to get distance from the monster. “Perun, care to give that thing something to keep it’s eyes on while I find a new sword??”

[Perun]

It was not lady luck that dropped Perun, but his friend coming to save him. With a bash from his friends sword, Perun was dropped onto the ground, and he was once more on his back. The giant jolted to his feet as the spider turned and thrust Donovan away. As Perun had flown, his axe had fallen from its loop, and all arrows but one had slipped from his quiver. He looked down to his feet, and saw that the spider had thrown him to the ground next where he'd dropped his things. There he saw it, Fail-Not. He lifted it, and tore the hoslter from it, quickly working to string the massive bow. Setting it against the ruin floor, he looped his string over the top. As he finished it, a small bolt of gold lightning shot up the string.

Perun looked at the spider, who cautiously followed the loud mouthed mercenary. To provide his friend time to find apparently a new sword, Perun was going to have to be just as loud. He looked to the steps, and the skeletal warrior who'd held the leaf like blade. The massive man rushed for it, nocking his arrow as he ran. "Ey trakhat' litso!" The Spider stopped moving towards his friend. "Bog, kotoryy sotvoril vas, dolzhno byt', byl p'yan na possat'!"

The spider turned, and began taking small swift strides towards him now. The orange giant sprinted up the steps, and began to pull the massive bow back at the string, a golden bolt coming from both tips of the horns that had made Fail-Not. The magic began to burn at his fingers as the lightning began to crackle viciously around the arrow. He made it to the top of the steps, standing beside the skeletal warrior as the Spider jumped into the air once more, this time giving Perun nowhere to run.

However, maybe it was the spider's intentions, maybe it was the new trouble with depth perception, but the Spider crashed just below the platform, it's form attempting to fit all eight of its legs on the stairs. It turned to look at the broad Volsungg, spreading its dripping mandibles, and Aiming directly into its mouth, Perun loosed Fail-Not for the first time.

The arrow flew with alarming speed, but the issue with the bow was clear. As the arrow flew, the wood burned away, so that the head was only propelled by the lightning flying straight. Still, it crashed into the throat of the monster, and the thing had something like a cough, as its spindly legs, one of which weakened and bleeding pale blue blood because of Donovan, collapsed off of the steps.

It started to rise once more, now looking to climb another wall and get the distance to not be caught between the pair. Perun tore an arrow from the chest of the fallen warrior beside him, and set it to Fail-Not. This bow... he liked this bow.

[Donovan]

The Giant yelled in his native tongue, a language which Donovan was embarrassed to say he still knew literally nothing of, and the Bael’s attention spun towards the bigger man. Looking back, the silver tongued mercenary saw that Perun was planning on using the enormous, completely unreasonable bow to try and damage the creature. If Fail-Not even managed to fire, Donovan supposed it would do slightly more damage than Elm bow, but he doubted that anything the bow was capable of would make it worth the time to string and fire the darned thing.

Don continued to run at full tilt until he saw a sword that seemed to fill his nitch. As he picked it up, he realized that it was a weapon similar to Duma’s sword - abnormally light weight and yet still as powerful as the average blade. Immediately after grabbing it, Donovan jumped and rolled to his left, coming to his feet having realized that the creature was already attacking his giant friend again.

Don noticed the strange energy that seemed to spark from Fail Not as the Bael retreated to another wall, after a shocking arrowhead lodged in it's throat. The Silver Tongue let the thoughts slip from his mind as he made his way back toward the spider, new blade in hand. The creature leapt from the wall it had retreated to and down at the silver tongued mercenary.


The beast landed in front of him before Don could gain distance, so he decided to close it, lunging toward it’s head and slashing at it’s remaining five eyes. The beast lost another means of vision to the mercenary, but managed to catch him in it’s claws hooking his back with it's talons. Only Donovan weighed significantly less and was much easier to lift. He swung the sword back, as hard as he could, managing to strike the Bael’s leg once again, but the rusty sword was lodged into the creature’s exoskeleton and snapped almost as soon as it met any resistance. Don’s only hope was that Perun would be able to draw it’s attention away before it took his head off.

[Perun]

Perun's shoulder blade glided through the rippling fold of skin and the sinuous muscle of his back as the giant pulled the bowstring back another time. The ancient arrow was without a feather, its fletch having long gone to dust, but if it had it would have brushed the thick orange hair of the Ilian's beard. His thick fingers kept the arrow tight to the silver string, even as the magic of the bow shot from both tips and came to coat the arrow in a thin string of lightning. The magic licked his fingers as it coursed about the little arrow, and burned the tips of his thumb and deal. The longer he held Fail-Not taught, the thicker the lightning grew it seemed, and the more the spell shocked the giant.

However, he was faced with a difficult decision. Donovan was in the same position Perun had only just found himself, and Perun was to far away to repeat the Silver Tongue's favor. His only choice was to fire the bow in an attempt to save his young friend's life. But where?

He could easily hit it anywhere about the body. That would be an easy shot, and powered by the Lightning of Fail-Not perhaps the beast would drop Donovan and turn. However, it was not certain. What Perun needed to do was shot the thing's leg, force it to drop Donovan, but the shot was difficult. More than difficult, it was a fool's gamble. Perun pulled Fail-Not's bowstring back completely. The young mercenary was a bad influence. He loosed, as small noise booming from the bow as the arrow flew.

The arrow head tore through one of the thin legs holding Donovan up, and forced the Spider to drop the young mercenary. Perun began to sprint down the steps, and as he passed his axe, scooped it up and threw it back in his belt. The spider leaped up against a wall, and wailed its ugly sound. Perun grabbed Donovan and hauled him to his feet. In his mind, he marveled at his shot. He was far from that talented an archer. It would be some time before he took that shot again. "Duno-ven. Perun iz being think would be being best if we are both keeping move."

[Donovan]

Perun shot and the mercenary fell. He also would have gambled every penny in Lycia against the Giant making such an impossible shot, but he supposed his friend was properly motivated. Donovan began to run, once again. Not only did he need to find another weapon, but if that thing caught him again, it would definitely be the end of him. “I definitely think we should keep moving, Big Guy.” What they needed was something big. Something unstable. If they could crush it…

Don felt a gust of air on his left and expected to see the spider. But it was still up against the wall, seeming to bide its time, missing two of its legs. Instead, the Silver Tongue saw Perun’s nemesis: the strange, old sword that had fallen from the big guy’s grip at the top of the staircase. He ran straight for the sword, bending to scoop it up, feeling the pain of his bleeding back.

From the moment his hand touched the sword a feeling of calm washed over him. He knew they would slay the beast. He was certain that they’d be triumphant. But in that same moment, something shook the very forest around them to its core. A shriek tore from the bowels of the castle, behind the great oak doors into its interior. It ripped into his eardrums and a sense of dread penetrated the calm. Something had awoken.

But Don wasn’t the only one to hear the wail, as the ball leapt from its wall, straight at an unsuspecting Perun. There was nothing he could do, the creature was too far away, and Perun did not have enough time to react. But he had to save him. He had to trust the sword. So he swung.

And not moments after he did so, the Spider was thrown backwards, propelled by some unknown force and slammed into a pillar, which shook precariously. Donovan dug his feet into the ground as they nearly flew out from beneath him. Something had happened. Though he could not say for certain what it was.