cookiesnmilk
The "Before" years
[M:10]
Text magic master!
Posts: 66
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Post by cookiesnmilk on Dec 12, 2006 21:35:04 GMT -6
Despite the whole argument, Matthew is the best IMO. Assassins really aren't worth it and Matthew has a lot going for him as a Thief. Legault has the abilities that make him better thief. More con, defense, resistance, and luck. Also he has defense/avoid support bonuses. Matt makes the best assassin due to crit supports. But assassins are a sucky class anyway. assassinate is useless, and a normal crit would kill the enemy just the same. They're speeds and strengths are pretty much equal. Matthais, you would rather use guy, because you have pikablu syndrome. Karel is best swordmaster. Guy sucks. Guy has no strength and defense/resistance, and only speed. He's a mediocre sword unit in the begining, and easily outclassed by eliwood (who will do more damage, but not attack as often, also has prf weapon) and lyn (who will do slightly more damage, and attack just as often, also has prf weapon), and once you get raven, guy is useless. Raven has strength to do great damage, and the speed to double like a monster. Guy is outclassed early game. Later in the game if you actually train him, his strength will be problems. yeah he can crit, but he can't use a damn killing edge without speed loss. You only get one wo dao, not count karla's. And the brave sword is just plain a better weapon to get. Wo dao is a weaker killing edge with 5 more crit and one less weight. woopdeedooo. Brave sword weighs a lot, but like the paladins or a hero can use it decently. Guy just doesn't do enough damage to be able to sustain himself. He lives off of killing axe users. He can't fight lance users, and sword users are tough for him to fight. He also has really low defense and resistance, so when his dodge fails, he gets pounded. Karel starts out good. He has a good strength value, and some defense and resistance. He doesn't have to rely on dodging all the time. He has the strength to do some damage, and still has the speed to double. He also has a good con stat too. None of the myrmidons are all that good, but guy and karla suck, karel is decent. I'll back up harken some other time. Even though I personally like raven, I'm tired of this prepromo bashing.
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Post by Alan on Dec 13, 2006 1:40:05 GMT -6
There really isn't any reason to not use two Hero's. Karel is good but in the end it comes down to Karel or Karken, you have to choose and Harken is simply better. Thieves aren't suppose to fight much, Matthew's ridiculously high speed ensures that he can always Steal and pretty much always avoid. Though that's my opinion.
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cookiesnmilk
The "Before" years
[M:10]
Text magic master!
Posts: 66
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Post by cookiesnmilk on Dec 16, 2006 14:37:58 GMT -6
Legault's speed is pretty much the same as matt's. He has more luck and defense/avoid supports so he has higher avoid and is a better dodger. Not to forget more con for higher dodge, more defense and resistance, and a good str base. Legualt stands out as a theif more.
Harken is better than karel, but debating swordmasters, your going to have to forget about harken.
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Post by Alan on Dec 17, 2006 2:47:01 GMT -6
You still have to trade the Brave Sword for the sucky Wo Doa if you want to use Karel and you need to open more then 5 doors.
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Post by Matthias on Dec 17, 2006 13:09:23 GMT -6
doesn't that depend on which one you end up at?
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Post by Alan on Dec 18, 2006 3:51:43 GMT -6
In the kenneth chapter you need to kill 5 promoted enemies before turn 9 or something, point still stands.
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Post by Matthias on Dec 18, 2006 10:44:16 GMT -6
certainly does...
Like I really care.
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cookiesnmilk
The "Before" years
[M:10]
Text magic master!
Posts: 66
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Post by cookiesnmilk on Dec 18, 2006 16:13:04 GMT -6
You still have to trade the Brave Sword for the sucky Wo Doa if you want to use Karel and you need to open more then 5 doors. It doesn't matter. I'm arguing Karel > Guy, not Karel > Harken. Harken beats Karel in every way, but to argue Karel beats Guy, you have to get Karel on the map. Harken has nothing to do with the fact that Karel is plain better than Guy. Also, Sword Demon > No nickname.
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Sokka
The "Before" years
Flashing Blade[M:0]
My sword brings justice to the guilty.
Posts: 132
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Post by Sokka on Dec 18, 2006 19:42:58 GMT -6
About legault:
hes better, but hes wierd and ugly.
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Post by Alan on Dec 19, 2006 3:32:31 GMT -6
Nicknames mean sh*t, Guy get's HHM bonuses and he comes waaay earlier, he is easier recruited and if you get him too 20/7 (or whatever level Karel joins on) he's comparable to Karel.
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Post by Matthias on Dec 19, 2006 17:15:58 GMT -6
those HHM bonuses seem to matter a lot. Guy isn't that great a guy though... seriously. Myrmidons themselves aren't that great. I'd rather have a mercenary any day...
but i'm confusing the issue again.
So, who is better? Guy or Karel? I still say Guy.
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cookiesnmilk
The "Before" years
[M:10]
Text magic master!
Posts: 66
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Post by cookiesnmilk on Dec 20, 2006 18:10:09 GMT -6
Nicknames mean sh*t, Guy get's HHM bonuses and he comes waaay earlier, he is easier recruited and if you get him too 20/7 (or whatever level Karel joins on) he's comparable to Karel. Guy is too weak offensively and defensively. He becomes more of a pain to level later on, as he isn't even 2hking axe users anymore. He needs to be babied, and ends up relying on unreliable crit later on. Especially early on where that killing edge knocks off 2 of his precious AS, and is better suited for somebody else. His constitution is pathetic, and the only weapons he can use well are iron sword as a myrm. And wo dao for swordmaster, and silver if you want to do decent damage. Pretty much he'll be forced to use silver because of the low damage he'll do with an iron sword.
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Flyssa
The "Before" years
[M:-325]
Posts: 114
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Post by Flyssa on Dec 29, 2006 8:34:09 GMT -6
I put the level at 20/10 So 10 levels after promotion o.o;; And I rounded that stats up. Averages FTW =|
Guy: HP: 46 Str: 16 Skl: 23 Spd: 26 Def: 11 Res: 8 Luc: 17 Con: 6
Karel: HP: 32 Str: 17 Skl: 24 Spd: 21 Def: 13 Res: 12 Luc: 16 Con: 9
If I got any of these wrong, feel free to correct me >_<
Now lets look at the differences:
HP: 14 for Guy o.o Str: 1 for Karel lol Skl: 1 for Karel Spd: 5 for Guy Def: 2 for Karel Res: 4 for Karel Luc: 1 for Guy Con: 3 for Karel
'Guy is too weak offensively and defensively. He becomes more of a pain to level later on, as he isn't even 2hking axe users anymore. He needs to be babied, and ends up relying on unreliable crit later on. Especially early on where that killing edge knocks off 2 of his precious AS, and is better suited for somebody else. His constitution is pathetic, and the only weapons he can use well are iron sword as a myrm. And wo dao for swordmaster, and silver if you want to do decent damage. Pretty much he'll be forced to use silver because of the low damage he'll do with an iron sword.' Can't be bothered to add quote tags, but I think you all know this is cookiesnmilk's post.
Lets analyze this! =3;
'Guy is too weak offensively and defensively.' Oh really? Assuming you mean later on, like 20/10, Karel only wins by ONE strength at the same level. I'm guessing that one strength is what makes Karel a killing machine and Guy a useless unit? No. It is not. And 2 defence for Karel is NOT better than FOURTEEN HP for Guy. Lets say they both carry a Silver Sword, Guy loses 2 to his speed. That makes his speed 24, still better than Karels by three! >>;
Guy's evasion: 24 x 2 = 48 48 + 17 = 65
Karel's evasion: 21 x 2 = 42 42 + 16 = 58
Does 2 defence beat 14 HP AND 7 more dodge?
'He becomes more of a pain to level later on, as he isn't even 2hking axe users anymore.'
Haven't got the game, lent it to my friend. Haven't played for ages. But he isn't that hard to level.
'He needs to be babied, and ends up relying on unreliable crit later on.'
Can't remember, lance-users definately give him some trouble but its generally not very clever to use Guy against lance-users early on. Like Florina against a axe-user. But whatever.
'Especially early on where that killing edge knocks off 2 of his precious AS,'
Can't remember.
'His constitution is pathetic'
Later on his speed outweighs his constitution. He can still double attack and dodge effectively.
'and the only weapons he can use well are iron sword as a myrm. And wo dao for swordmaster, and silver if you want to do decent damage. Pretty much he'll be forced to use silver because of the low damage he'll do with an iron sword.'
The strongest 9 weight or below weapon is the silver sword. I think, so if Karel uses anything heavier, his speed drops. Unfortunately I don't know the general speed of the enemies so I don't know when he stops doubling. But whatever. Guy still has better speed witha silver sword AND better dodge.
Lets say they both use Regal blade. Karel will still only have 1 more strength. He'll have 21 speed and Guy will have 23.
I don't think they're pre-promo bashing as such, they just like Guy better because Harken is better than Karel.
'Harken is better than karel, but debating swordmasters, your going to have to forget about harken.'
Mmm... I see what you mean. But in the game you can only pick ONE of the TWO. And Harken is vastly superior and comes with a better weapon. Thats another thing obstructing the choice for Karel. So Guy has another thing going for him in a sense. So we shouldn't forget about Harken because he boosts the usability of Guy over Karel in a way. lol. I'm sure someone could phrase it a lot better.
Although Guy CAN get RNG screwed, he also has a higher chance of getting blessed.
Now onto SUPPORTS! ^^
Lets see Karel's list POW DEF HIT EVA CRT CEV 0.5 0.5 5 2.5 5 2.5 - Karla 1 0.5 5 2.5 5 0 - Guy 1 0.5 5 2.5 5 0 - Dart 0.5 1 2.5 2.5 5 2.5 - Geitz 1 1 5 0 5 0 - Lucius
Name Element C B A Karla Darkness 28 68 108 Guy Fire 26 53 80 Dart Fire 41 81 121 Geitz Thunder 41 81 121 Lucius Light 81 161 241
Karla just sucks. Unless you really like Swordmasters, I doubt you would use her. Her support bonuses aren't much better either.
Guy... Two swordmasters on one playthrough?
Dart. Good unit, nice boosts, but at most you'll be getting a B, if Rebecca is included in the playthrough.
Geitz gives okay boosts I guess.
Lucius, nice boostwouldn't he rather support Raven and/or Priscilla.
All of Karel's supports are pretty long considering the time you get him. I really wouldn't expect more than a B for most of his lists unless you keep them together.
Guy's support list:
POW DEF HIT EVA CRT CEV 0.5 0 5 5 5 2.5 - Rath 1 0 5 2.5 5 2.5 - Matthew 1 0.5 5 2.5 5 0 - Karel 1 0 5 2.5 5 2.5 - Priscilla 1 0.5 5 2.5 5 0 - Louise
Name Element C B A Rath Darkness 21 41 61 Matthew Wind 24 51 78 Karel Light 26 53 80 Priscilla Wind 41 81 121 Louise Light 81 161 -
Rath's support is quick to get, plus Rath only supports with Lyn and Wil and I doubt you'll use Wil and Rath, especially when Rebecca is generally considered superior to Wil.
Matthew is fast to get, nice bonuses for both of them. I'll maybe continue yourdebate on thieves to prove Matthew isn't worthless.
Karel, nice fast support, assuming you use two swordmasters, you'll have good bonuses.
Priscilla suuport gives pretty good bonuses, like Matthew's support. She'll probably be supporting Lucius and Raven though.
Louise is Guy's slowest support, same bonuses as Karel's support, not really worth getting. Louise isn't that good of a sniper anyways.
Credits to rpgdl.
Much appreciated if someone would tell me whats happening on the RP, too lazy to read it.
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Sergey
The "Before" years
Reformed Fighter[M:0]
Posts: 193
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Post by Sergey on Dec 29, 2006 9:47:18 GMT -6
If you aren't considering using Rath and Will together then I very much doubt you will want to use two or three fast swordusers without other weapon choises. You dismissed Louise already and Priscella can have better supports, leaviing us with Rath, who is bad char BTW.
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Flyssa
The "Before" years
[M:-325]
Posts: 114
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Post by Flyssa on Dec 29, 2006 10:48:36 GMT -6
'If you aren't considering using Rath and Will together then I very much doubt you will want to use two or three fast swordusers without other weapon choises. You dismissed Louise already and Priscella can have better supports, leaviing us with Rath, who is bad char BTW.' - Sergey
I don't approve of two or more swordsmasters in FE7, considering none of them are that good anyways.
Rath is not a bad character and I do dismiss Louise. Lets see why. ^^
Rath: Level HP Pow Skl Spd Def Res Luc Con 10* 45.6 21.0 18.8 22.0 12.2 10.5 11.6 8 Louise (Same format as before): 10* 31.6 14.4 16.4 19.4 10.2 13.8 17.8 6 Rebecca (Same format as before) 10* 37.8 18.2 20.0 23.7 9.2 11.4 18.0 6 Wil (Same format as before): 10* 43.2 20.5 20.5 17.8 12.4 9.7 16.8 7
Bear in mind Rath can also use swords after promotion and has the best movement of all the bow-users (including warriors). Rath also comes first in three stats (not including warriors), two of which are fairly important (HP and Str (Ties with Wil in strength if you round up)). If you round up he ties first in defence.
The main hunderance I can think of is his late joining time (after Lyn's mode) and the fact he gets less EXP from killing enemies in Lyn's mode.
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